PreneurCast is a marketing podcast. Each week, author and marketer Pete Williams and digital media producer Dom Goucher discuss entrepreneurship, business, internet marketing and productivity.
This week we feature an interview Pete did with Alan Fawcett of the infinite pie podcast. Alan talks to Pete about how he got started, where he gets his ideas, and how he goes from idea to implementation.
Alan talks to Pete on how to get great ideas and start implementing them on your business
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Inside the Mind of Pete
Dom Goucher: Hi, and welcome to this week’s episode of PreneurCast with me, Dom Goucher, and, somewhere in a minute, Pete Williams. Did a little bit of a change-up this week, and you may or may not know that Pete regularly gets asked to do live speaking gigs and other kinds of interviews, guest blog posts, generating content for other people’s training courses, all kinds of stuff.
What we’ve got for you today is an interview that he did a while ago with a chap called Alan Fawcett, from the UK. Alan hosts a podcast called the infinite pie podcast, which supports Alan’s consulting and coaching business. We thought that this would be a really good interview for you to hear, first of all, because it gives you a little bit more of an insight into the way that Pete thinks, and where Pete came from, where he gets his ideas from, how he got started.
But also because Alan asks some kind of different questions, questions that we don’t always necessarily cover on our podcast, but we thought that the answers were quite interesting and enlightening. And it gives you, also, an insight into Alan’s podcast.
Now, we do talk a lot about books, and sometimes about training courses and software and equipment, and things like that. But there is a lot of value in a lot of podcasts that are being published at the moment. More and more will be coming to light, but there are some very well-established ones out there that we might start to recommend.
As it turns out, we’ve known Alan for a while. Alan’s been a member of the Preneur Community, and we’ve done some work with Alan in the past. So, when Alan invited Pete onto the podcast, we thought this was a great idea, love to support our Preneur Community in any way we can. So, we thought we’d also share that podcast with you. So I’m going to hand over now to Alan and Pete.
[Alan Fawcett’s conversation with Pete starts]
Alan Fawcett: So, Pete Williams, welcome to the infinite pie connection podcast.
Pete Williams: Alan, thanks for having me, buddy.
Alan: Oh, no problem at all, it’s my pleasure, it’s my pleasure. So, Pete, I’ve given a little bit of an introduction prior to this, but why don’t you just take a couple of minutes to tell people a little of your background, if you like, and your story. What brought you to the place you are now?
Pete: Oh, mate, a very crazy journey. Very many mountains and dips, and valleys, and all that fun stuff. It’s always a hard question to answer, really. I’ve got my hand in, pardon the pun, but quite a few different pies. My real-world, day-to-day focus, so to speak, or my core business is a telecommunications group here in Australia.
We have a number of offices around the country, selling and installing phone systems, doing carriage and phone bills. I have a number of e-commerce sites under that banner as well, so mostly in the B2B space. That’s the day-to-day focus, or at least two or three days a week of my life.
Then, I do some consulting work, involved in a software company, had a number of businesses, started my first one when I was 17. And, yeah, I do a lot of various, different things. But at the end of the day, for me, it all falls down to sales and marketing.
I still don’t know how to install a phone system or do any of the mechanical stuff related to any of the businesses I’m involved in. I just focus on the sales and marketing, and let the employees with the skills focus on the delivery and the mechanics, so to speak.
Alan: Right. And is that one of the core principles–surrounding yourself with experts in their own field, and you stick to what your good at and let them do what they’re good at?
Pete: Yeah, I think there’s plenty of different ways to skin a cat. But the way I focus on business, and really encourage most entrepreneurs to focus about business, is that it shouldn’t be about the tool, it should be about the actual marketing. A great example is, you go into an apprenticeship, whether it being a baker, a builder.
Candlestick makers these days aren’t around that often, but that thing. And what you do is you get out of this apprenticeship after three or four years, and you’re a really good mechanic, you’re really, really good on the tools. But then, you think, okay, the next thing is to start a business.
Often, you start a business and you have no skills about acquiring customers, converting those customers, getting them to come back and purchase from you again, negotiating with suppliers for your margins. And they’re some of the seven key things that actually drive the profit of a business. So, my focus is all focused on those seven things.
The things that really drive profit, and then the actual delivery of the product has to be good you know, we have to ensure that we have a good customer service and a good delivery of the product. But that’s not my focus.
I can employ whose passion is the product of the various things, whose life works are installing phone systems, or baking or whatever it might be, and they can focus on that stuff, and I’ll focus on the actual generation of customers and profits. So it seems to be a great business model that’s worked time and time again in so many different nations and areas that I’ve been involved in.
Alan: Interesting stuff. You mentioned that you ran your first business or had your first business at 17. So has this entrepreneurial spirit always been within you?
Pete: Yeah, it has. I’m still trying to quite figure out where it came from. Mom tells a great story of when I was about three or four years old. Apparently, I had crayons and drew arrows all the way down the hallway. And before mom decided to scold me, being the smart and caring and encouraging person that she was, she sat me down and said, “Honey, why did you decide to draw on the wall?
You know that’s not right.” And, apparently, with a beaming smile, I said to her, “Well, it’s so you can find me in my office if you need me.” I don’t know where that came from, my mom’s a teacher, my dad ran logistics companies. So I wasn’t really an “entrepreneur.” It’s not really in the gene pool, so to speak. But, somehow, I lucked out and have that.
I’ve been that way, always, on some level. Which was really cool when I was younger, trading basketball cards quite seriously, at our holiday place down in Ocean Grove, which is on the coast here in Australia. We used to run basketball card swap meets for the local caravan parks when I was in my teens, just always been that way inclined, so it is part of my DNA.
Alan: Okay, so you don’t know where it’s come from, but it’s always been there. Seventeen, you start your first business, it sounds like you’ve actually taken it on from there. When you started that first one, just going back to what you were saying a minute ago, were you on the tools, as it were, back then? Or were you always that, ‘actually, I’ll have the ideas and I’ll get somebody else to implement?’
Pete: Ah, look, I wasn’t that much, that full of wisdom back in the teens. My first business was a company called Impact Plus, and it was a web development company. So it was literally doing websites for local sporting clubs, schools, a couple of local businesses.
Didn’t have a whole bunch of clients. It was I was in high school. And between school, partying, and basketball, there wasn’t a lot of spare time, but I was able to squeeze in a few paying clients here and there for that little business. It was never something that was huge. It was just a business I did on the side.
And my mom encouraged me. We went to her local accountant and we registered a business name, which was completely pointless. There was no real need to do all that because it was a hobby business. But she was very encouraging. I set up the business name properly.
The accountant was really helpful and supportive, as well, and gave me some advice that’s probably stuck with me today that I surely didn’t implement at the time, because it was completely irrelevant. But, yeah, it had that foundation there, but I definitely was in the tools coding and developing. I wasn’t aware of outsourcing and there wasn’t an oDesk 15, 20, 16 years ago.
Alan: So you say that it was probably completely irrelevant, but it sounds like it wasn’t because it sounds like it became quite foundational in your thought process. Because, obviously, the decisions and the choices and the lessons we learn on a regular basis, and I know that you are a massive consumer of content. So it’s all that type of stuff that would have just added in to making you the person you are today, surely?
Pete: Oh, absolutely. There’s no doubt that the stuff that was showed to me then, and even then, I remember going to my first two-day business event when I was in high school. My now-godson’s father, who was a good family friend of ours, was into that space to a certain extent, and I don’t know exactly how I turned up there.
But, basically, we had two extra tickets, somehow, so mom and I went along with Bruce to this two-day (I think it was either a four-day or a two-day) event at the old entertainment centre here in Melbourne, which was a big stadium, Madison Square Garden-type thing here in Melbourne.
I went to that event, and I remember it was just close to my birthday. I begged Mom to, instead of my birthday present, let me go to the back of the room and spend my birthday money early and buy some cassette tapes. I listened to those tapes over and over, and over again. It was a bit of a shame that the guy from the seminar ended up in jail, but that’s a whole other story.
Alan: Let’s hope that the lessons were right, but you implemented them in a slightly different way by the sound of it.
Pete: Yeah, exactly. The reason he went to jail was a business-related thing, but it was a completely separate entity. It wasn’t because he was trying to spruik stuff, and there’s all those spruikers who end up in trouble. It wasn’t because of that. The stuff he did teach, I think, still holds true and is very good.
But just how he went about implementing, and got greedy in some of his real-world businesses and some stock trading and some insider trading, and all that fun and games, that can occur to people outside their realm of skill set, I guess, or moral bounds.
Alan: Okay, so you’re 17 years old, you do this hobby-type business, but you’re learning the practical application of what business is all about, and some of it’s sticking, and some of it is gone by the wayside, and you draw it back later. Where does it go from there, when did you feel that you really took on what you would class as your first business venture proper, ‘this is me going for it big’ style?
Pete: I think the first proper venture, so to speak, would have been the selling of the MCG [Melbourne Cricket Ground], Australia’s vision of Yankee Stadium, when I was 21. That was kind of the first big deal. I’d traded some shares, and I’d done some property bits and pieces, and small bits and pieces like that.
In terms of proper venture that had a real business around it that actually made some profit, that had a huge scale around it, that would have definitely been the MCG project, which was hugely successful, and was really the foundation of a lot of the stuff I do now.
Alan: And again, for people who haven’t heard the story, the selling of the MCG. You’re 21 years old, and you’ve got this strap line that says, The Man Who Sold the ‘G. Talk me through that one. How does that work? How does a 21-year-old sell a national iconic stadium?
Pete: It was a bit of the media around that, in terms of the story. But basically, to pull it all together, I was just getting back from some time working in the USA. I’d done a stint with [The] Athlete’s Foot, the shoe store chain. Here in Australia, during university, that was the job I had. And that was probably one of the most influential things.
The guys there ran a fantastic store. Belinda and Tony and the team, they ran a fantastic retail store. Probably, one of the most profitable Athlete’s Foot stores in Australia, and very, very smart about everything they did. I guess, directly or indirectly, because of my nature, they took me under their wing a little bit, and I learned a hell of a lot from them.
So, with that, I was able to leverage that relationship and spent some time in the USA working for Athlete’s Foot. The visa ran out, came back to Australia with plans to move back to the USA for a girl, as you do when you’re 20, 21, and was working at another Athlete’s Foot store that the owners of the Geelong store that I’d worked out at university owned, helping get that set up.
It was a relatively new store, so it was quiet with foot traffic. I did a bit of time behind the counter reading books, just out in the front of the store in case someone walked in. I could serve them and do what needed to be done, but I was leveraging a bit of time.
So I was reading a book called The One Minute Millionaire by Robert G. Allen and Mark Victor Hansen, which is a fantastic book, bit of a hype-y title, but don’t hold that against them. The book tells a story of someone back in the 80’s who basically bought a whole bunch of timber that was part of the Brooklyn Bridge walkway.
Just between Brooklyn and Manhattan, and was making some trinkets up with the history of the Brooklyn Bridge on a small inch-by-inch piece of timber, selling them off for about $20 a piece. Rumor has it that he made a couple million dollars out of it. And I was like, how cool is that?
Just turning an idea, something that’s known to people, that’s memorable, and turning it to trash-into-treasure types in our area. So I started to kind of think literally that morning while I’m standing at the counter going, what could I do? How could I, potentially–just thinking through ideas, which I do quite a bit, and still do today.
When I see an idea, it’s like, well, let’s try and work that muscle and see, if I had the time and inclination, how could I go about doing that, not with any major intention of doing stuff now, I’ve got enough projects, but just to keep working that muscle.
Back then, I realized that the Melbourne Cricket Ground, Australia’s version of Yankee Stadium for want of analogy, was getting redeveloped for the Commonwealth Games we’re having here. So, then, one of the stands, and part of the stadium, was actually getting pulled down.
It was all timber seating, it was that old. It was all timber-based seating. I was like, oh, perfect idea, let’s see if I can make this happen. So, within a few phone calls, I found the wrecking company that was doing the demolition. I said, “Oh, do you have any of the timber seating just still lying around? Have you demolished it?”
They’re like, “No, no, we’ve got it all here in our warehouse. It’s available, just come and grab it.” So, I’m like, oh, sweet. Then, part of that conversation, they mentioned they actually had some crested carpet lying there. I know that sounds really weird. Carpet, what does it mean?
But the MCC, the Melbourne Cricket Club, it’s a very prestigious, members access to the stadium. Fifty-year waitlist, quite expensive. You get access to all the sporting events, blah, blah, blah. But the carpet in the actual members’ dining room and bar, is really, really ugly, but really, really well-known with the actual crest of the club.
Being a bit of a memorabilia collector myself, I thought, hang on, there should be some value in that. So, basically, bought that, sight unseen, with a friend’s credit card because mine was maxed out from being in the US partying, and went down the next day, grabbed all the carpet that was there, grabbed the whole bunch of timber, took it back to the study, and kept it in the study at Mom’s house.
And then subsequently turned that into a series of memorabilia pieces with a photo of the MCG, a piece of that crested carpet, a plaque outlining the history of the ‘G, and a limited edition number of stuff. Made a series of frames. Oh, I didn’t, I didn’t. Again, this is probably the first inclination of getting mechanics done by somebody else.
Found a framer who could do all this for me and created frames up out of the timber, part of the series. And then from a marketing perspective, wrote a press release, ’21-Year-Old Sells the MCG for Under $500,’ and printed that out. It went absolutely bananas here in the Australian media.
As I’m sure you could understand, it was a very cool angle and I just worked that media. Basically, that was the real first venture of serious substance that I was involved in. It was a huge success, and got a whole bunch of media stories around it, got some really cool nicknames, got approached to do a book deal after that. So it was a really huge successful little project that I worked on with a couple of people.
Alan: That’s fantastic. Again, there’s just so much actionable advice just off the back of that that I need to pick up on a few bits and pieces. I’m sure that the fact that you were 21 helped, that this young, audacious–look at this guy getting off his backside and making something happen, what a great strap line, the selling of the MCG for under $500 and all this thing.
There’s a lovely little story there. But there’s a couple of things that you were talking about that I’m going to pick up on. One is the fact that you said that that couple that at Athlete’s Foot, you said was quite pivotal in the way that they ran things, but also the fact that they took you under their wing.
They must have seen something in you to connect with you and go, there’s some potential in this kid that we want to enhance. Is that fair? Is that relationship in that way?
Pete: Yeah, I think so. Although I’m not really in contact with them much any more, not for any bad reason. I moved away from Geelong, and we catch up when I walk through the store in Geelong to go shopping and stuff like that. But I think it was a combination of two things, them being an amazing family, very, very switched on; and also me stepping up to a certain extent.
Wanting more responsibility, showing that I wasn’t just a 20-year-old, 19-year-old kid who was only interested in making enough money to go blow it at the bars on weekends. I think that kind of stood out a little bit. We had some common interests, being triathlete at those days.
The owner of the store was an ex-Australian triathlete, so we had a bit of a connection there. I’d rather spend my weekends at least getting up relatively early on a weekend to go for a bike ride or a run, stopped me from being hung over all the time. So that kind of helped, I think, to show the type of person I was.
And I was willing and asking for more responsibility. I was a great salesman. I’d read a lot of books on sales, so that helped as well. So I think it was all just a mixture of both them being very, very smart, amazing in business, and also a combination of me willing to step up and actually kind of request that support to a certain extent as well.
Alan: I think that’s, in some ways, that’s the key, isn’t it? It’s almost like, from a coaching perspective, when I’m working with clients, I often talk about a matched commitment, and I think that that’s what that sounds like to me. There’s something in it for both parties if we’re prepared to meet in the middle here.
So they were getting a certain benefit out of it, but also they were prepared to offer that development. And it’s a question I’ve been almost asking myself, and I’ve been drafting an article on, in relation to: Does everybody deserve the same level of development?
I wonder if there’s an answer to that in that sense. But, okay, the next step is, that the idea to implementation, again, 21 years old, you just read a book. Lots of people do that type of thing. They put the book down, they go on to the next one. You put the book down and start thinking about the ideas, see an opportunity.
But what pushed you past that what we call the aha moments to getting past the ah-yet-but moment? Because it would have been very easy to go, well, that sounds great in principle, but my credit card’s maxed out. You could have found all the reasons why not to do it. Is it just your very nature that pushes you past that, or are you very measured in the way that you analyze ideas?
Pete: Yeah, very good question. It’s a hard one to answer without sort of–by giving value, I think, and it’s going to sound really weird. But for me, at the time–this is the hard part–is that the only answer I’ve got right now is the context from where I had the idea. And the context was I was a 21-year-old kid who had nothing to lose. So in that instance, at that time, what’s my worst-case scenario?
I have to get a job. I’ve got a job, okay. There was no real downside. And I think that is easy to see from the outside, from anybody, whether you’re 45 with three kids, listening to this right now and going, oh, yeah, it’s easy for you. You were 21 with no responsibilities. You could have a crack at that. And that’s absolutely true.
But at the same time, I think, if you really analyze the situation, anybody any age could have done that project. ‘Twenty-one-year-old sells the MCG for under $500’ is a good hook, but Melbourne man sells the MCG for under $500 is just as good a hook the media would have latched on to. So don’t have the cop-out, “Oh, you were 21. The media angle was better because you were 21, and you had no bad alternatives.”
These are absolutely true facts, but don’t let that become the argument for you not doing something. So, I really find it hard to articulate that answer because I’ve been asked it numerous times over the last 10 to 15 years, 10 or so years now, and I’m still struggling to articulate that in the most motivational way possible.
Alan: I think that’s absolutely fine. And again, like I said, I often talk about the difference between excuses and obstacles. So an excuse to me is where somebody will tend to externalize. “Oh, well the economy’s wrong,” or “We live in the wrong area,” or “I’m too old,” or whatever. And they’ll externalize, and they use an excuse to stop.
Whereas, if you internalize and you look at it as an obstacle, you try and find a way around it, you try and find, what can I do about this? And you try and find an opportunity to go around it. So it sounded like, and it sounds like, you continue to look inside and go, “what does this mean to me, and what can I do?” Rather than externalizing and going, “It’s somebody else’s problem, somebody else’s fault that I can’t do this.”
Just picking up on that because you say that, obviously, that particular situation was when you were 21, but you also said that you continue to use that idea muscle. Whether or not you want more projects or not, because you’re quite loaded down, you still stretch that idea muscle.
So the ideas are still flowing and coming, no doubt. One, how do you see ideas? Are they just popping out, or do you go looking for them? Two, how do you capture them? And three, how do you then start to go, it’s something I want to explore, or you know what, it’s going to sit in a drawer and maybe one day, I’ll pull it out again and have a look at it?
Pete: Yeah, great question. Firstly, in terms of how do I do those ideas, it’s just about me reading and consuming stuff. I’m a huge audiophile and I listen to a lot of audiobooks and podcasts. That helps fuel the fire a little bit there. And then it’s about just having this mental rule. It sounds a bit wanky, I guess it probably is, but thinking about, how could I adopt this to my own projects?
The overworn analogy of McDonald’s swiped the drive-thru part of their business, which is a huge part of their revenue these days, from the banking industry. Back in the early days in the US, you had drive-up windows in a lot of the banks. McDonald’s swiped that from there.
It’s an overused analogy, but it’s probably the best one to use in that I start thinking about, well, if that’s what you see here in some audiobook about an online shoe retailer or a book about a software development company, what are they doing?
And what examples are they giving that you could potentially tie into your business? Just think that through. Not thinking them through that you’re going to have to implement and take action on them, just starting to get how could that potentially work around this?
That’s the first element. Just consume a lot, and then try and not take action at all. Just think on how you could take action. That’ll just help that idea muscle. Then, you’ve got the other side of the coin or working out what do you implement, what do you don’t?
That is a hard one, and we do struggle with that because we have access to a lot of resources, be that time, money, or whatever, that we can go after a lot of different things. That can be a curse, can be a blessing. But I think, realistically, it comes down to a couple of things.
Does it fit in with the current plan? Making sure you do plan for set periods of time, whether it’s a 90-day plan, so you don’t do anything deviating off that plan for those 90 days. You have that idea file where you throw everything into, knowing that you don’t have to touch it for 90 days.
Realistically, if you look at it, majority of ideas can last 90 days without being watered in that you don’t have to implement the idea straightaway. It’s not going to get stolen or lost, or die. Very rare that something needs to be done in 90 days for it to succeed or not succeed.
Yes, there are exceptions, but the majority aren’t. And if you think that your idea is going to die if not implemented in 90 days, you’re probably going to be wrong. Some people will be right, but most people are going be wrong. So I think it’s about saying 90 days–putting any ideas you have in that 90-day period.
Or you’re executing on the actual plan that you’ve got, should be set there. End of the 90 days, okay, here’s the next 90-day plan, go to that little well, go to that bucket, pick up those ideas, work out which ones you want to implement, and then go from there.
And part of that is also saying that, what is going to generate the most amount of revenue quickly? You’ve got to have medium to long-term plans as well, but is this idea a vanity idea or is it a profit idea? They’re two very different things.
Alan: Yeah, and they certainly are, aren’t they? I mean, that’s the thing. One of the things that started my premise for this podcast was the phrase ‘what gets measured, gets managed.’ And I know that that’s, again, a really popular phrase, and it’s absolutely spot on.
But, again, it comes down to what you’re measuring and therefore, what behaviors you’re driving off the back of that. Because you measure vanity metrics, you’re going to drive vanity performances and vanity behaviors, aren’t you? So it’s the same concepts, absolutely spot on there.
So I love that idea. I love that thought process of, if you’ve got a plan in place for 90 days that’s on the basis of, well, I know what I should be doing for the next 90 days, and this idea has popped up–almost that, I’m going to put this over there and just let it sit for a minute, and sit still.
It gives you that time for more information to gather. When you come back to it, does it still have that same passion, desire and interest, while you’ve been managing your day-to-day plan. Because I think that sometimes what we can have this tendency of doing, is we can get so excited about it.
In the same way that I said earlier about the ah-yeah-but moments where we can find all the reasons why not to do something, sometimes we can get very blinded by all the reasons to do something, can’t we? Oh, it’s hot and it’s shiny and exciting, and we go all guns blazing and maybe not quite as well thought out and planned as it should have been.
Pete: Exactly, absolutely right.
Alan: One of the things that I know that you’re exceptionally good at because I follow your podcasts and your blogs, and other bits and pieces, one of the things that I know you’re renowned for is your work flow. You’re very effective at planning things out.
As you just said, with your 90-day plans, but also having work flows in place where you know, at any given point, where things should go and how they should go. Are there projects that you start, and you’ve got measures in place or flows in place that highlight this one just isn’t working?
So we either need to, using The Lean Startup phrase, ‘pivot,’ or, you know what, we need to take that one off the shelf and put it away for a little while. Have you made those types of decisions?
Pete: Yeah, I think that’s part of being in business. I wouldn’t necessarily change the idea. It may just be the execution of the idea, so to speak. And one thing I learned very early on was that what I think is completely irrelevant, it’s what the people with the wallets and purses think. They are your true metrics. In The Lean Startup, they talk about not going to the focus groups and all that crap, and actually testing something quickly.
We’ve done that for years now in businesses in terms of what we think might be a good laugh or a web page, or a good headline. It’s completely friggin’ irrelevant. It’s about what the market tells you it wants based on data. And that is why I love the Web as one of the key platforms we use to drive our business. Everything is measurable, manageable, instant feedback.
If you look at our original designs for our various projects, whether it be one of the e-comm sites, or the telco website for lead gen, or an information publishing project; our initial concept, and what actually ends up being the iteration that generates most revenue, is normally poles apart. And that’s because we are continually, as we said, iterating.
I think the actual idea itself should be relatively solid. It has been, numerous times, for us. There’s always going to be tweaks to it of course, but even the implementation is going to be tweaked too, based on continual, that feedback loop-type scenario that they talk about.
Alan: Yeah, so it’s not about being so wedded to an idea that you’re not prepared to listen to feedback. Because again, there’s lots of different arguments for all these different stories. There are some people who will turn around and say Steve Jobs was very clear on what he wanted, he’s the attitude of, people don’t know what they want until we tell them what they want.
But, ultimately, his measure was, well, did people buy it? Did people go out and get that cool factor and enjoy using it, and adapted it? Obviously, the iPhone now isn’t the same as the iPhone when it first came out, is it? It’s been adapted, adjusted, and reiterated throughout. So, yeah, I get that.
Pete: I’m a huge Apple fanboy. I think Mac software and Mac operating systems are amazing. I’m very much for them. But I do think that Steve Jobs is given a lot more credit than he deserves. In that, yeah, the iPod was amazing, but he didn’t pioneer that. They had the biggest marketing budget, and were able to buy certain companies and take it to market very quickly and very profitably.
I had an MP3 player before the iPod was released. It was a cheap little piece of crap, but it did digital music playing. There’s no question the iPhone was a revolution, absolutely. But if you look through Apple’s history, they haven’t been amazing at every single thing they’ve touched. So I’m not trying to dampen Steve Jobs by any stretch of the imagination.
But he had a couple of successes, which were huge because of the market share they were able to get based on the money moving they had behind them. But I don’t think they did, or have done it enough times to really prove that model of just do what I think is right over and over again.
Alan: Yeah, no, absolutely. It will be interesting to see.
Pete: Huge, but nothing unjustified, but questionable.
Alan: Yeah, and it will be interesting to see what happens over the next few years as well, as to how they’re taking that information in. Just as we were talking about that concept, ultimately it’s about understanding what the people who are, in this instance, prepared to open their wallets.
Because again, from the concept of Robert Cialdini’s book Influence, one of the measures was that (and I can’t remember the phrasing at the moment), but almost that concept of, if you ask upfront and get some form of commitment, then they’re more likely to go through with it later.
Pete: Yeah, the commitment and consistency.
Alan: Yeah, that consistency factor, that’s the one. But, again, it depends on who you’re asking and what you’re asking, I suppose. Because, again, if you go and ask your friends and family how wonderful an idea that you just invented in your back shed is, they’re likely to tell you that it’s fantastic. But they’re not necessarily the ones who are going to be buying it, are they?
Pete: Well, I think asking and making offers are two very, very different things that people confuse. I remember hearing a story, I think it was Guy Kawasaki, who told the original story of Sony when they originally made the boom boxes. This is before the iPod, long before the iPod, the old boom box theory.
They see people walking around with it on their shoulder. And they did a focus group, and they got a whole bunch of kids in a room, who was their target demographic, and spoke to them in the morning session and said, this is what we’re trying to build. What color should it be? Should it be yellow or black?
And in this focus session, based on the conversations that were being had and asking them, they said to these kids what would you prefer. They all said yellow, yellow’s cool. It’s bright, it’s fun, it’s funky, blah, blah, blah. So it was all cool. Then the rest of the day went on, apparently.
I think the story goes that they got a tour of the factory and they got distracted. And then, at the end of the day, they offered these kids the ability to take a boom box home, and said, before you leave, in that room, we’ve got the boom boxes. Go grab what you want. They all chose black.
So great story. How much truth to it is, I don’t know. I’m pretty sure there’s some fact, given that the strength behind the story, the way it’s originally told. But it’s the difference between offering and asking. They asked what they thought, and they all said yellow.
They offered them to actually transact–obviously, they were free. But they still offered them, they all chose black. So asking your friends and family is completely irrelevant. You’ve got to make offers to the marketplace and see what they tell you.
Alan: I think that’s brilliant in itself, just that difference between, like you said, asking and offering. Fantastic stuff. Okay, so, reading. You talked a minute ago about reading and consuming a phenomenal amount of material. With all the stuff that you do do, and all the projects that you’re involved in, how do you keep balance in your life?
Pete: Great question. An amazing wife. I’ve been this crazy since before we met. So she knew what she was getting into. I wasn’t trying to become somebody different after the fact, which I think can be hard for a lot of families, all very lacking in that regard. But the weird thing is this business stuff, because I’ve been doing it so long, I treat it more as a hobby, and I think that also helps too when I’m testing stuff.
Because it’s like, this is the test, it’s a hobby, who really cares? Very profitable hobby, but that’s how I treat it. I don’t see this as a need to balance work and life, because it’s just what I do, it’s what I enjoy doing. Obviously, with the time of our conversation right now, five-and-a-half-month-old baby.
So, definitely, things have shifted because that has become priority. Things like my Ironman training and triathlon stuff has been put on hold, because of that. I’m giving up that part of my life for him, and will do it all day, every day. But from the business perspective, I really enjoy it.
I’ve worked really, really hard through my 20s. So now I’m in my 30s, I have the ability to structure my life to give me that balance, but still go to work. I’m only coming in to the office here three days a week. I get two days a week at home now to do ‘what I want.’
Most of it tends to be business-related because that’s what I really enjoy. But at least I’m home and I can do the lunch feeds and play around with him in between consulting calls. I worked really hard to have that position now, so I don’t want to sit up here on a throne saying that everyone can walk this path straightaway.
I know that it definitely can be done, and there’s plenty of people that can do it. But I’m not going to just turn around and say that everyone can do exactly what I do straightaway. Because I’ve worked hard for 10 years at it, so there’s reality to the hype as well.
Alan: Yeah, it’s that classic taking 10 years to be an overnight success. Lots of people on the outside looking in can go, yeah, but it’s all right for him because. But the thing that I liked about that again, and it’s something that I agree with you wholeheartedly, is this whole balance thing can come in lots of different ways.
The old phrase of, oh, you don’t want to be on your deathbed looking back and say, I wish I’d spent more time in the office. Well, actually, do you know what? If that’s what you really connect with and enjoy, why not? As long as it’s not in the detriment of another aspect of your life where you have regrets.
But you know the work-life balance, as a phrase to me, is a bit of a misnomer because it implies that work isn’t part of your life and life isn’t part of your work. And it’s what you bring to it that I think makes the difference. So, okay, but to keep that balance in perspective, and you mentioned Ironman training, and you do aspects of that, and you connect with that.
But you’ve let that go a little bit for now, but it’ll be back on the horizon in the future. You mentioned that you consume lots of books, you’ve mentioned you’re a bit of a Mac fan, you’ve mentioned that you do the Ironman training. I often talk about connecting to more than just people. So we connect to places and things, and tools.
You talked earlier about making sure that things serve you rather than you serving them. Again, when we look at tools, we want to make sure that it’s doing something for our purpose, rather than the other way around. So are there any tools or processes that you use on a regular basis that make your life either happier, fuller, or simpler?
Pete: Yeah, Mac software and Mac computers. Better get back in line with the gods of Apple. But no, there’s a whole lot of applications. This is something that freaks a lot of people out, is that I don’t consider myself a first mover when it comes to new software. I talk a lot about software for my workflows, and that people make this assumption and connection that I’m always onto the hottest thing.
But I very rarely use a tool within its first three or four months of coming out. A little though, all the friends of mine who are the people who like to get distracted with new tools and change their workflows, and have a new tool embedded in that workflow, and then waste their time and profit by doing that.
And I’ll wait to see which tool of theirs sticks, and then I’ll adopt it. A big surprise to a lot of people is that there’s a whole bunch of stuff that comes through every single day that’s exciting and used, and I’ll be one of the last to implement it. Then when I implement it, I’ll implement it hard and properly.
So I’ll let other people do that that trial and error for me, and stand on their shoulders. But in terms of tools I use, the iPhone is a huge one for me. A lot of apps on there. OmniFocus. I’m a big David Allen, Getting Things Done advocate, as a way to run your day to day tasks lists.
So OmniFocus is huge for me, because it can sync between the Mac, the iPhone and the iPad. That’s my diary, if you will, my to-do list. I use Evernote as my filing cabinet, so that’s where I file stuff. That’s all I use it for virtually, is just a virtual filing cabinet. Because you can categorize stuff in files and folders.
It’s all scannable and searchable, even photos, which is really cool. Gmail is the tool that we use in all our businesses for that. That way, it’s all in the cloud. Skype is a huge tool for me for connecting with people and things like that. What else? I use Notational Velocity and Simplenote, which is a great tool that allows you to sync notes across different devices.
That’s like my virtual notebook. The way I treat software is very analogue in that prior to computers being around, there were tools for certain things. So you had a filing cabinet for your files, you had a notebook for your notebook; you had a diary for your diary.
When I come to using tools, I really try and be very, very clear on what analogue replacement that is, and not try and get too cute and have different things doing multiple things. I know people that use Evernote for their notebook, their Getting Things Done platform, and their filing cabinet.
And I just can’t personally get my head around how that’s manageable because when you’re in Evernote, what are you doing in Evernote? Which one of those five different things are you doing? To me, when I’m in Evernote, I’m searching for files that I’ve filed away. When I’m in OmniFocus, I’m looking at things to do.
So, one tool, one use, and I think that it’s almost a frame or context, or even a positive constraint to a certain extent, is one of the big successes of why I can get everything done. Because, when I’m in a certain application, when I’m in my Gmail, it’s because I am writing correspondence.
It’s not my to-do application, it’s a correspondence tool like my mailbox was back 15 years ago, or the fax machine was. Everyone probably knows from GTD and Inbox Zero crap that inbox should be not your to-do list, but so many people use it as a to-do list.
What’s in their inbox is stuff they need to deal with. Well, that’s not how I use it. For me, it is a communication device. If I have to action something and I can’t do it straightaway, it goes into my action list, which is OmniFocus. So I move stuff around very, very quickly.
Alan: See, I like that. I’ve written down the one tool, one use, because that’s something I’m certainly going to apply. As much as I like to keep things very simple, I probably fall into the trap of what you just said, where I look at things and go, so how can I use that most effectively? And sometimes that slips into more than one use, and I think by simplifying, it’s going to make a massive difference to me.
The inbox as a to-do list, I find really fascinating because the concept of the inbox, your e-mail inbox as a to-do list is, effectively, you’re allowing somebody else to set your to-do list, in that basis. Because your inbox is filled by somebody else. So conceptually, you are allowing other people to set the tasks on your to-do list, if you have that mindset.
Pete: Yeah, I actually disagree with that slightly. Only slightly, controversially, I think that is absolutely true, that’s what everyone talks about. Where I think if you really look at it, a lot of the stuff in your inbox is replies to stuff you facilitated. So, when I look at my inbox right now, I’ve got a response to an e-mail I sent, I’ve got a request for consulting.
I’ve got an e-mail from a course I’m going through at the moment, I’ve got a request from someone about a meeting, I’ve got a couple of e-mails from my team telling what their daily actions were. So my inbox right now, if you look at it, really, it’s mostly people responding to my agenda.
I do agree to a lot of it to an extent that your inbox is other people’s agenda, but I think that’s a cop-out. I think, realistically, the inbox–if you’re doing your job right, the majority of your inbox should be replies to stuff you’re practically managing. People know my e-mail address is not that hard to find.
But I farm this stuff out very, very quickly to someone else to deal with. So the way I manage my inbox is, mostly, I’m looking through here, I’ve got 30-odd e-mails in my inbox right now, 31 to be exact. The majority of these–I can probably see seven or eight e-mails right now of people who have e-mailed me for things.
The rest of it is generally people responding to stuff that I initially facilitated. So it’s my agenda, they are a part of my agenda. So I think that people need to be very clear and just don’t buy into the stuff that’s out there on the Web because everyone jumps on that bandwagon and repeats. I think the core of it is absolutely correct.
Alan: Well, I think the question is, are you the norm? I’ll bounce the same provocative answer back. But the way that you just described it, absolutely spot on, but I wonder, based on the conversations I had with people who are stressed up to their eyeballs with–I’ve got 148 e-mails, and they’re almost wearing it like a badge of honor.
I’ve got 148 e-mails in my inbox, and I don’t know how to do, and I got it down to zero a few days ago, but it’s straight back up. As soon as I clear it, they come back in again. And again, the number is irrelevant, it’s more about the mindset that you just stated that’s important.
Are you in control of it, or is it in control of you? And that’s the key for me, I suppose, so I love that. Going back to your iPhone, is that where you consume, because you listen to a load of audiobooks, don’t you?
Pete: Yeah, absolutely.
Alan: Is it, again, on the iPhone?
Pete: All in all, a mixture between the iPhone and the iPod shuffle. So, the shuffle when I’m out running or on my bike. But in terms of driving to the office, and around and about places, it’s generally the iPhone. I just use the iPod for the podcast app and the audiobook app, just the default app.
So I’m not into Stitcher or you know those other podcasting apps that are out there, I just use the ones that are default. I find them more than adequate for what I need.
Alan: Brilliant, and while you consume lots of books, are you a podcast consumer as well?
Pete: Yeah, I go through phases with that, funnily enough. There’s definitely a bunch of podcasts I subscribe to. And there’s no logic to this or science, so don’t take this as advice, but what I do is that I’ll go through two audiobooks back to back, of different topics, and then I might spend a week just chowing through podcasts.
Then I’ll ignore podcasts for three weeks, and then I’ll catch up again. I probably just get sick of the same person’s voice for six episodes in a row. So yeah, definitely devour podcasts. But for me, it is this break kind of stuff, but people who listen to your podcasts and my podcasts should absolutely listen to them every single week.
Alan: Oh, absolutely. And on that basis, then, you’re talking about books. Listening to your podcasts (which I’ll put links to), PreneurCast, fantastic, you and Dom. Recently you’ve been talking about the fact that your getting lots of books and actually publishers coming to you with read this book, listen to this book, have this book, what about this book, can you review our book?
How do you choose that? How do you cut through, and again, to quote your blog, the Noise Reduction or your e-mail that comes out; how do you cut through the noise and go, this is what I want check out and listen to at the moment?
Pete: Great, great question. A couple of things. One is suggestions from people, I get approached about a lot of books, they’ll sit on the shelf collecting dust a little bit. Until someone says, “Hey, have you read this book?” Then I’ll be like, okay, cool, I’ll go and read it.
Again, not really trying to necessarily always be the first to read a book, because I don’t want to waste my time. I’d rather other people forge that path through the forest, and let me know that it’s a good journey. So, that’s one thing. Secondly, when people do solicit us and send books that way, we know if they took the time to care about our community.
We’ve had over a hundred shows now with the PreneurCast podcast that we’ve been doing for a couple of years. A huge community of 45,000 or so people. I want to make sure that they care about our community. If they just send us a blatant, cold pitch for a book, I’ll go, “Yes, send me the book,” but I won’t open it.
Because if they don’t care enough to take the time to think it out–how does that fit with our community, is it a fit for our community? I’m not going to give them the time of day if they don’t respect our community. So that’s secondly. Thirdly, if it’s something that does interest me, like they approach us the right way.
It will generally be, what part of the book, which chapter, which section do you think is most relevant to our audience? And then I’ll read those three or four pages, or that one chapter. That gives me a feel for A) have they thought about who our audience is?
And then I can devour that part and go, yeah, there is a fit there. I like this style of writing, I’ll go back to the start and consume the book all the way through. So that’s how I go through traditional books. In terms of audiobooks, the audiobooks I consume is through my Audible subscription.
That is primarily driven by referrals of people, so it’s very rare that I’ll have an audiobook suggestion for the podcast in that audiobooks are generally not released until after the actual print book goes to print because audiobooks aren’t traditionally counted towards bestseller ratings.
So a lot of publishers, except for the big ones who are going to land on the list based on historical stats and size, will go to market first with a print book, try and sell this. And then on that result, subsequently get the audiobook out. So most books we get are a pre-release. It’s only the Kindle version or the print version.
So the audiobooks come out from people saying, “Hey, here’s a book you might have missed. Check it out, it’s awesome.” And then that’s how I consume those and then decipher those ones.
Alan: Ah, makes sense, makes sense. Okay, so has there been a book that recently, that you found yourself recommending to others?
Pete: Yeah, there’s been a bunch of books that I’ve been listening to recently that kind of all have tied in and referred to each other, funnily enough. A great book called Start by Jon Acuff–the audio version is a must-listen-to, he is an amazing orator. He’s a public speaker by profession, and the way he enunciates and articulates his book is just brilliant, and the content’s amazing.
It’s about starting projects and getting started. Willpower was a great book, The Power of Habit–so there’s a whole bunch of books I’ve consumed recently all around getting started, and commitment and consistency, building habits, getting over willpower, getting over friction. So there’s been a whole bunch of books recently in that area that I’ve found really interesting of late about that issue that a lot of people face.
Alan: Yeah, this goes back to what I was saying earlier about how I work with my clients on how to get from idea to implementation. Because the idea is one part, but actually you’ve got to start and you’ve got to stick with it, haven’t you, to make a difference?
I’ve read at least two of those, but I think I need to check out Start. I don’t think I’ve got that one on the bookshelf, so I’m going to have to check it out. And you’d recommend listening to that one as well?
Pete: Yeah, I haven’t read the book, I’ve only listened to it. But it probably has to be one of the, if not the top, three or four audiobooks I’ve ever listened to. Not in terms of the content necessarily, although the content is amazing and is worth consuming in any format.
If you’re not an audio person, still buy the book. The content is worth definitely reading. But in terms of the enjoyment of listening to an audiobook, it was one of the most engaging audiobooks I’ve heard in a very, very long time.
Alan: Okay, that’s fascinating in itself because the fact that you’re talking about that with such conviction tells you that it stood out in that way. Now one of the top tips I took from you in a podcast many, many years ago–well many, many months ago at least, was that you listen to a lot of stuff (because of the amount that you consume) at two-speed. I do that as well now. Did you do that with Start?
Pete: Yeah, definitely two-speed.
Alan: So it even stood out at two-speed, the style and approach that this guy had, it still stood out in two-speed?
Pete: Yeah, his pacing, his articulation, his emphasis, it was a masterpiece the way he just articulated that book. Even at two-speed, it was just really captivating.
Alan: Fantastic. Okay, look, I’m getting to the end now because I’m really conscious of your time. But it sounds like lots of people are reaching out to you at the moment, so this question might come as a little of left field. But given the opportunity, who would you love to connect to and why?
Pete: Ooh, good question. I don’t know. It’s going to sound a little arrogant I guess, but most of the people I want to connect to have built very strong networks over the last 10 or so years, so most people I can kind of reach relatively easy. Do you know what? This is going to sound very strange, but probably Ben Affleck.
In terms of I respect him as an actor and a director, and as a writer. I think he’d be a really cool guy to chat with just about the business of show business. So I think he is someone that’s completely left field, I would assume, for most people who’s anticipating an answer from me.
But I think Ben Affleck would be really cool to have a chat with and see how he goes about the creative process of writing and directing movies, and even acting, to a certain extent. More so about the directing and writing side of things. He’s written a couple of great screenplays and won Academy Awards. It would be really cool to get that idea of how hard it is to make a movie and what it takes.
Alan: Fascinating stuff. Now, I love that from the perspective of–obviously, you’ve been really interested in him, and it really is a left-field one. So that, I enjoy that, as well. But let me spin the question around a little bit for you as well. If you had the opportunity to sit down with him, and had that conversation, and be interested in him, that’s one part of it. But what do you think you would bring to the party for him?
Pete: Good question.
Alan: I’m getting good at this.
Pete: What am I going to offer Ben Affleck? Realistically, I think some different ideas around–actually, I have no friggin’ idea, to be honest. I think I could bring a really good coffee from a coffee store down the road from him, or I could pick up a great bagel and offer him a great bagel.
Top of my mind, maybe some connections, maybe some ideas about marketing a movie online. I think that would probably be where there could be a good fit in terms of effectively using online communities and networks to market a film, without just a blatant traditional advertisement online. Rather than just buying ads on YouTube and banner ads and things like that.
Doing some creative community-based stuff, even throughout the movie production. I think that would be really cool, as someone’s producing a movie, to really be open and transparent about the moviemaking process and build an audience up before the movie even hits the cinemas.
Kind of similar to what Robert Kiyosaki did with Conspiracy of the Rich when he wrote that book. What he did is he blogged throughout the writing process, shared drafts or chapters with people who could help contribute to the tweaking of it.
I wouldn’t suggest Ben give away the screenplay and get people to help draft a dialogue or anything like that. But I think you could do a much better way of sharing, not trailers, but like pull the iPhone out and record DiCaprio running a scene, or running a line, and put it up on YouTube.
Talking to the actors throughout the process, and interviewing the grips and the lighting guys, talking about how they light certain scenes. Really build the journey up for the audience part of the movie. I think that would be really cool. And then, I’ve also got a screenplay idea that I’d take to him too.
Alan: There you go. See, it’s all coming out now. No, I love that. I love that for two aspects. One, the actual marketing goal too is in there. But also just the fact that what starts off with that, ‘do you know what, I don’t really know,’ there was so much in there really, and the value that you could add.
And the third is that I really, genuinely believe that stake in that community. When people feel involved, and they have a stake in something, that they want to be part of that success, they want to be that tidal wave behind it. So I thought that was fantastic.
Pete: It’s interesting. I think moviemaking’s almost one of the very few final frontiers that haven’t become transparent, in that everyone can now like a movie on their iPhone, so that stuff’s been forged and done. But there are so many businesses now that are very transparent about how they operate.
But moviemaking, to the average Joe who goes to a cinema, is still a bit of a mystery. I personally would like just to get a feeling of what that journey’s like. And I think the first studio to go to market with that– I don’t think it could be a movie like Transformers or Superman where it’s huge, hugely visual effect-type scenario.
You could do some of that and share how they’re made, but that kind of takes the illusion away. But a story, like a Ben Affleck-type movie where it’s all dialogue, character-driven.
Alan: Character-driven, yeah.
Pete: You could share the movie making process without screwing up the story and the surprise of the story. I think that could be cool.
Alan: Yeah, now I’m just sitting there thinking of Good Will Hunting, for example, and getting behind the scenes and having that conversation with the Matt Damons and the Robin Williams, and Ben, about the whole process and pulling back the curtain a bit. It’s almost like DVD extras before the thing actually comes out, isn’t it? So brilliant.
Pete: Yeah, that’s exactly what it is.
Alan: Yeah, I like that. Okay, I’m going to flip the question around a little bit now, which is, who would you suggest that I connect with and why? Who do you think, that you know, that I should be sharing their story as well?
Pete: Oh, great question. Who should you be connecting with and why? I think you should be shooting for the stars. I’d be going for some of the guys on Shark Tank in the UK. People know their story, but really getting down to what drove them. I think they’d be really cool to hear.
A lot of people on that Shark Tank show, or who are classed as entrepreneurs on TV, what is their real story, what are their real challenges? Let’s forget about they created FUBU and made billions of dollars. What was their first two businesses that failed?
What were they doing before that? Have a conversation with someone who people know and are aware of, but talk about something that they’ve never spoken of before. Talk about some of that stuff beforehand. I think that would be really interesting for people to hear and connect with.
Alan: Great story, brilliant. I’ll be looking to do that because I can think of a few people that already come to mind off the back of that. Okay, so, wrapping this up. Top tip that either you’ve been given in the past that you live and breathe all the time, or you constantly give out? If you had to summarize, top tip, actionable advice, what do you tend to find yourself saying a lot?
Pete: There’s no such thing as internet marketing.
Alan: Now, I’ve heard you say that a lot, but go on. I’m going to let you have a couple of seconds to explain that one.
Pete: I think people, and it’s probably not your community, necessarily, but a lot of people are out there saying I’m an internet marketer. And that’s the biggest load of crap I’ve ever heard in my life. Unless you actually sell the internet, you’re not an internet marketer, you’re a business owner or a want-to-be business owner whose only path to market is the internet.
That’s what you are. And when you really make the distinction, you start thinking of a business as a business, and the internet as a tool, a medium, and a path to market. People say I’m an internet marketer. One day they’re a publisher of eBooks, and they’re a publisher.
The next week they’re an e-commerce store, and the following week they’re something completely different. So, no, you’ve been three different businesses in three weeks, how do you expect to be successful? Pick your model and work that model.
Alan: Excellent, love that. Okay, Pete, it’s been a joy and pleasure. If people want to get in touch with you, how do they find you? How do they connect with you?
Pete: Yeah, sure. I’d say PreneurMarketing.com. So Preneur as in ‘entrepreneur,’ P-R-E-N-E-U-R, Marketing.com is where the blog is, the hub of everything I do online. You can download an audiobook version of my first book, which tells the story of the MCG, and the subtitle of that book is actually ‘From Idea to Implementation,’ so there’s a good fit for what you talk about as well. People can go there, download that audiobook, join our community, listen to our show, and party with us.
Alan: Brilliant. Well, let’s see if I can be sharing that far and wide, because I’ve enjoyed the two and a half years of listening to you. I remember, my first listen was driving from one side of the country to the other, and I think I had about seven episodes loaded.
I just followed it, so I did listen to six or seven episodes on the trot, and I’ve just been following it ever since. I really enjoyed it. So thanks ever so much for your time today, and I wish you the continued success that you deserve.
Pete: Awesome, Alan. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. And, to everyone else who’s listening, I hope you got some amazing value.
Alan: Oh, there’s definitely some. Well, I’ve certainly been scribbling notes. So if other people haven’t been, then they need to go back and listen again.
[Alan’s conversation with Pete ends]
Dom: So, as Pete said there, I really hope that you got some value from that. It’s a little different perspective to what we normally cover on PreneurCast, but it gives you an insight into Pete, the way that he thinks, the way that he comes up with ideas, the way that he works.
Also, it gives you an idea about this other podcast, the infinite pie connection, that Alan runs, and maybe you’re interested in taking a look at that over at infinitepie.co.uk. I’m going to leave it there, but please do let us know in the comments over at PreneurMarketing.com if you’re liking these kinds of guest interviews, different people interviewing both myself and Pete.
If it’s a thing you’re interested in, if you like this kind of content. And also, if you have a podcast that you’d like us to feature on, just drop us a line at support [at] preneurgroup [dot] com. Pete and I are both happy to join and help our members of Preneur Community produce their own content and just give our opinion, and help out in whatever way we can. So, see you all next week.
http://www.infinitepie.co.uk – The Infinite Pie Podcast
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