Puppies don’t count.

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I agree with you completely. I started a business to support Mums run a business because when I started there was no support. Now it seems to be such a big thing, and, as your contacts said, it is condescending. Business achievements are business achievements, whether or not you have kids.

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Leela, I couldn’t agree more. I am an entrepreneur and I am a mum. I am NOT a WAHM. I am NOT a Mumpreneur. I am NOT a business mum. I run a business and my husband I have a family, together. He works too, we make it work together. Trying to balance it all is tough sometimes, but millions of women work and have children all over the world. Not all of them can build a successful business from the ground up. Raising a family and running a business are totally different skills. Don’t get me wrong, there are lots of issues that you don’t come across if you don’t have children (not necessarily directly related to running a business, but all that affect your perception on your capability of running a business) but I totally agree that business awards should be for business. Who says that these ‘business mums’ are doing such a great job of raising their family (oh, that’ll get some resposne!). I’m not saying that they aren’t, my point is, like yours Leela, that whether they are or not is irrelevant to their business achievements.

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Awesome post, Leela.

I AM a mum, AND I’m a business owner. In fact, it was because of my kids that I started a business.

(And not a kid related business either)

I must admit, I’m getting pretty sick of being told i’m a “Supermum” because I have kids and a business. I DO feel it undermines what I do, business wise. I don’t think I’m any better than women in business who don’t have kids, or women who have kids and no business.

Sure, I have challenges that you don’t. But I’m willing to bet you have challenges that I don’t, too. And I’m not even going to get into comparing – coz that’s just stupid.

I’d be pretty peeved as well. My kids and my business are seperate entities, and “mum” and “business owner” are just roles I play as part of who I am (not the other way around!)

I want my business recognised for what I’ve put into it and what I’ve created and what it does for others, not because it’s “owned and operated by a mum” … dunno, just feel it’s almost a “sympathy” award.

But, hey, that’s just me

Well done, you, for bringing it up.

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Leela Cosgrove Reply:
December 1st, 2009 at 6:17 pm

Thanks Amanda – you’re a fellow female entrepreneur who I really respect – and I love that you run a business to support mums but still GET it …

As I said before, I think in some ways it’s probably harder for women who HAVE bred and don’t want to be defined by it … I at least can’t be defined by my children … only by my lack of them.

And by my dog.

But please, PLEASE don’t judge me by my dog.

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[...] Read more here: I chose entrepreneurship, not motherhood. Am I missing something … [...]

Interesting post Leela.

The male/female thing is annoying – you either admire parents who run a business (or have jobs for that matter) or you don’t care and their gender should make no difference either way. Of course, that partly relates to people assuming a father runs a business away from home and the mother runs it at home and also cares for the kids.

I have never used the fact I have kids and work from home (by choice) for promotional purposes as it has nothing to do with my business or my business skills frankly. And if I ever had the time to enter an award, I want to win (or lose!) it based on those skills. Unless an award is for ‘best business mum’ your parenting status is irrelevant.

And if I hire a service provider, I want them to do x for me and them having kids doesn’t factor into my need or plans.

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Leela Cosgrove Reply:
December 1st, 2009 at 6:15 pm

I agree about winning or losing based on your business skills … most importantly, I just can’t imagine a non-femalecentric awards ceremony even taking that into account …

However, the attitude from posters below does sum it up … some women believe they are more successful because they have a business AND children. And I would hazard a guess that several of those are sitting on award panels across the world …

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I too agree with you. I actually started my business with the intention of when I finally do want to have kids that I will work from home and look after my children while working at home on my business, but at the moment we still don’t want any children, maybe in the next few years or so.

Not having kids yet has meant that I’m still working full time while running my business part time as I try and build it up to a reasonable position. I’m pretty much run of my feet most days, but that doesnt seem to count for much if I don’t have kids?! The intention is to one day work solely on my business, but its still not at that point yet. I don’t want to stop working full time and have some kids just to fit in with the rest of the groups who get praise for doing so.

It also frustrates me slightly how many interest groups and organisations are formed to praise mothers in business. I am not saying they don’t deserve recognition, but what about the woman who don’t have children? They work hard at their business too. Many of these groups also have networking lunches throughout the daytime to help them learn from each other about the ups and downs of business. What about people like myself who work full time and can’t attend such functions at lunch time? I’d like to network with some of those like minded woman too but can’t.

I get really annoyed whenever I see television shows like A Current Affair running repeated stories of mothers who are running business and highlighting their business on their show. Its great that they are gaining free advertising for their efforts, but what about the rest of us who are working just as hard, but again have no kids?

Well done for bringing this up. I’m sure it will create alot of heated discussions.

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Leela Cosgrove Reply:
December 1st, 2009 at 6:13 pm

I was discussing this on Facebook and I think we need to create a Childless Female Entrepreneurs networking group.

I know, technically, that adds to the problem more than it detracts from it – but I think there are a lot of alienated female entrepreneurs out there who would love the chance to have that interaction without being quizzed about their family …

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Nadia Kerr Reply:
December 1st, 2009 at 6:41 pm

I like your thinking Leela. I admit I have thought of creating a similar group myself by was also concerned whether it would get negative back-lash.

I’m already part of a few other groups which claim to be just for woman entrepreneurs but find like yourself they host events in hours not suitable for those who work full time or irregular hours due to their home business, plus focus more on woman who have children.

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Dhea Reply:
December 3rd, 2009 at 4:22 pm

I think that is a great idea…

Oh hang on most networking events are run either at breakfast or lunch…or after work at 5pm – 7 when exactly are the other events run ??? during playschool or Humphreys??? Gosh obvioulsy men group entrepreneur groups don’t have that issue discussed… lets exclude all the dads… I think it would be a great idea to create a childless mother group and make it really clear that you don’t not want mothers there so we know … and yes then you might be competing against your peers.

cheers

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Leela Cosgrove Reply:
December 3rd, 2009 at 4:41 pm

Right.

So it’s okay to have mothers only networking groups – but not okay for those who are childless to support each other?

Us supporting each other doesn’t detract from your life – so why would that be a problem?

I don’t go crashing mothers groups … and I don’t resent them. I get mums want to support each other … go for it. I’ve been to a lot of networking events however that were supposed to be for “women” but were really for mums. That’s not a problem – just label them accordingly. I don’t want to hang out with 30 women talking about their kids – I don’t relate, I don’t care. IT BORES ME TO TEARS.

Just like I don’t go to accountants networking events because I have no interest in accounting. I’m happy for them to have their thing though.

I don’t understand why you’re opposed to women without children supporting each other???

So true. I cringe every time I hear that motherhood is a woman’s greatest achievement. Not for all of us it isn’t. Not even for many mums.

I also cringed at a PR conference I attended recently where a male MC introduced a female entrepreneur as the ‘total package’ because she was clever enough to breed and be a leader in social media. Urgh. So condescending.

Same goes in politics as in business. When they talk about women’s issues they really mean mothers’ issues. Not the same thing.

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Leela Cosgrove Reply:
December 1st, 2009 at 6:11 pm

I’d just love them to do the same to a man …

“This is Jason – he’s the total package because he runs a business, takes care of the kids and cleans the house!”

You KNOW all of the other guys would sit there sniggering behind his back …

I think in some ways this situation might actually be MORE frustrating for some mother entrepreneurs … I can at least have a ranty tantrum about not being a mother … but I suppose it makes it even harder not to be defined by your breeding when you HAVE bred!

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Article in today’s Advertiser nailed it I think. Delete ALL female oriented quotas, training and any special attention DELETED completely. Rename any mens/womens/discrimination committees to gender equalisation and look at all aspects of balancing things. Providing men with access to life balance and flexible workplace and encourage women into boards and business. Bring down the walls of forced role but do it without so called positive discrimination, that won’t work and gets backs up in all directions.

So why hasn’t it happened already? You can’t fight biology and having a child requires certain time off and commitments that cant be avoided and brings on choices for the family that might not otherwise happen. So we will never get rid of the unbalance but we can tip it the other way a bit and make it ok for a couple to share time with children with neither being bashed down for it.

We plan to work 3 days each with one day overlap to be shared with grandparents or care. The perfect life?

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Hi Leela

From my experience we entrepreneurs are a different breed and consequently we end up in one minority group or another. Being a member of a minority group inevitably makes you the target of criticism, ridicule or discrimination.

When I wasn’t as successful and prosperous, I remember a friend saying to me: “Why don’t you get a real job.”

It’s definitely not easy, and as a male I’ll never be a mother, but I think you just have to trust the path in life you’ve chosen is right for you, and to hell with the critics.

PS:

I recently became a member of a minority group, The “Anthill Heckler Supporter’s Group.” http://anthillonline.com/why-%e2%80%9cwork-smarter-and-not-harder%e2%80%9d-is-crap-advice-for-entrepreneurs/

In fact, I think I maybe their founding member.

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Leela Cosgrove Reply:
December 1st, 2009 at 6:09 pm

I agree – you certainly can’t take the critics on board … but I’m fascinated by the almost violent reaction that my breeding choices bring about in people … watch the below for evidence …

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Brilliant article and brilliant responses. Even though I don’t want to make it about gender differences, it does seem to boil down to that. Everyone has articulated the issues so well – thank you!

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I, also, am childless,run a successful business and am an entrepreneur.

I don’t have the issues that you have Leela, but I see them happening all the time. I see the WAHMs and the ‘business mums’ look down their noses at girls like you. They pretend that they don’t – *sigh* – but they do. I see them believing that their ‘struggle’ in business is ‘harder because they are mothers’ and have challenges that you ‘couldn’t possibly understand’.
I see them believing their own publicity.

And why don’t I have the same issues? Because I’m at least 20 years older than you and the women who make up the majority of WAHMs and business mums. I know – there are women in my age group that belong to the WAHM and business mum categories but because many of them have grown up or independant kids, they don’t have to publicly justify their need to make allowances for their families all the time.

Things haven’t really changed. If the time clock took us back 20+ years, you’d still have the same angst, Leela – except back then the issue was about women working outside the home. (there were very few women running their careers from home). Back then you were a ‘working mother’ or a ‘working wife’. The issues were the same.

I agree with your sentiments Leela, and wonder if maybe these women feel that the only thing they’ve really achieved is motherhood!

Sometimes these awards are no different to cattle shows – where they judge you according to how good/prolific a breeder you are!

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Leela Cosgrove Reply:
December 1st, 2009 at 6:08 pm

Gabby, I love hearing from more experienced entrepreneurial women who haven’t had children – it’s one thing for me to make this decision now – I cop enough shite for it … but I know that even 10 years ago it was a lot harder …

I just find it fascinating that we could have come so far and yet we’re still so caught up in classic gender roles … to the point of needing to ATTACK people who make a choice to go in a different direction … and to hero worship people who do what they’re supposed to.

I don’t understand why we can’t just celebrate everyone’s choice and acknowledge that everyone has their own issues – regardless of breeding choices!

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“but what about the rest of us who are working just as hard, but again have no kids?”
“but what about the woman who don’t have children?”
“but what about the rest of us who are working just as hard, but again have no kids?”
YEAH!… and what about all the white, middle aged, male, northern suburbs, wife and 2 kids investment bankers? Where is their club?
Leela,
Would you have written this article if it was all about ‘immigrant women’ getting special mentions because they overcame language barriers? After all, my background has nothing to do with me as a business person right? I bet you wouldn’t have.
It is ironic for you to be so upset about such a fuss being made over mothers who also run a business when you are attending business award nights for women.
Most people are genuinely impressed by mothers who also run businesses, just like they would be impressed by immigrant entrepreneurs, entrepreneurs without legs, entrepreneurs with unfortunate backgrounds…
However, consider this…
Who is more successful:
A woman who runs a business
A woman who runs an equally successful business AND a mother?
Sounds like sour grapes to me…

[Reply]

Leela Cosgrove Reply:
December 1st, 2009 at 6:02 pm

Sam.

Thank you.

This whole post was getting way too nice and I was starting to wonder if I’d totally misjudged women who were mothers and business women.

But you’ve just proven my point – the Holier Than Thou breeder mentality is still out there …

You’re not special because you had kids. We call that fulfilling a biological imperative.

You’re not more successful because you had kids. My definition of success has nothing to do with having children, so I think your question is absolutely ridiculous.

You’re just another woman who had kids. CONGRATS! WELL DONE! Let us throw a party in your honour! Let us put up a statue!

That has nothing to do with your business one way or another and brings home my whole point beautifully.

There’s a difference between over-coming huge odds (disability, poverty, immigration) and making a DECISION to have children … well, to me, anyway … are you telling me that to you, having your children is like living without legs? Or coming from Somalia? Or being born into an abusive, poor family?

Do you REALLY see having your children in that much of a negative light?

Wow.

That’s pretty harsh.

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Leela Cosgrove Reply:
December 1st, 2009 at 6:06 pm

… (but also explains your need to attack me on the subject).

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Sam Reply:
December 1st, 2009 at 6:11 pm

Its not a negative thing to have kids, but it certainly is more challenging to – all other things equal – raise kids AND run a business.
It’s not a question of how bad your life has been. I would see having kids and running a business as 2 good things, just like running a business and volunteering for charity. BUT it is still hard (and commendable) work.
Lots of people run businesses
Lots of people volunteer for charity work.
But doing both is certainly something to be commended. Same goes for having kids and running a business.
RE: the statue, I am sure all the mothers in the world deserve one, but I don’t think there’d be enough marble.

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Leela Cosgrove Reply:
December 1st, 2009 at 6:23 pm

And there is the problem.

You’re assuming that everything else is equal.

I know a lot of women with kids who started their business while their husbands were in $150k jobs … totally supported. Never had to worry about where they were going to live or what would happen if the business didn’t make any money. And even now when they make money it’s “play” money … it’s not what the family survives on.

Not all of us have / had that luxury.

I know other women who have kids who have excellent health – and women without them who have overcome incredible health issues to make their businesses work.

I know women with children who started their businesses because they were stay at home mums and they were bored and wanted to do something other than focusing on the kids all the time – and women without children who lost jobs or who put everything on the line to make a bigger dream come true.

It’s an interesting assumption that every woman who doesn’t have children, has exactly your life only without having to take care of kids.

Not the case.

Really not the case.

Sam Reply:
December 1st, 2009 at 6:25 pm

BUT, I do agree that at a BUSINESS awards night, it shouldn’t matter whether you are a mum or not, an immigrant, disabled, religious, young old or whatever. You should be judged on your business alone. That is why it doesn’t make sense to have women’s business award nights (even if the bands are great). I am thinking in a broader context in my posts above.

Leela Cosgrove Reply:
December 1st, 2009 at 6:28 pm

Really? Because you said, and I quote

“It is ironic for you to be so upset about such a fuss being made over mothers who also run a business when you are attending business award nights for women.”

Ironic.

Because it’s an awards night for women so therefore it must be an award for mothers?

You also said it:

“Sounds like sour grapes to me…”

So, no – it wasn’t a broader context. You were saying that I was being sour because I ironically went to a WOMEN in business awards and expected that the awards would be about business, not about mothers.

Please, continue in that vein … it’s so interesting to hear why all women who don’t have children are second class citizens.

[...] But have you thought about how the Mumpreneur  Movement appears to someone without children? I know when I worked on a magazine there was a certain amount of division between those with kids, who needed to leave promptly and take time off over school holidays, and those without kids who felt like they often got left to carry the can. I’ve just been reading an article from an Australian entrepreneur who is angry because her, “achievements as a female entrepreneur were downplayed because I don’t have children.” You can read her whole article here. [...]

Leela…always great to see a post from you show up on Anthill…never dull

I find ‘childless’ a really uncomfortable label. Probably because that’s how most people would catagorise me – and it really does insinuate that my life is missing, or ‘without’ something, rather than being complete as it is.

What’s the answer I wonder? It’s hard to know if we need a PR campaign or just to become such a large and powerful club that nobody dares give us any flack. lol Whatever happens, just know you’re part of a much larger posse that you can probably imagine.

I also just wanted to clarify, I’ve never made a conscious choice ‘not to have children’ – but at 34, I’ve just never felt the desire kick-in. I did though make the clear and conscious commitment to being an entrepreneur and I do think of my businesses as my babies. Although the one I sold a couple of years ago – I now think as leaving the nest in the way that children do as they grow up. I often talk to the new owner…just to see how my first born is going

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Thor Reply:
December 1st, 2009 at 9:27 pm

That is so cute! I can totally relate, I call old sales teams and check who got promoted sometimes!

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Leela Cosgrove Reply:
December 1st, 2009 at 9:33 pm

Ahhh … I had an email about this before …

I use “childless” because there is a movement that is called “childless by choice” – it’s well recognised and it makes it easy for me to explain to people how I feel … I don’t disagree … I don’t feel like I’m “less” because I don’t have a “child”.

I’m actually really floored by the number of emails I’ve had from people who aren’t wanting to discuss the concept in an open forum, but who’ve tracked down my email address and want to add their support.

Very cool!

And also to point out – the support is coming from both non-kid-types and mothers … and I REALLY appreciate that.

I think we should be celebrating CHOICE – that’s what’s so awesome about the time and place we live in … our ability to HAVE that choice.

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Leela Cosgrove Reply:
December 1st, 2009 at 9:34 pm

stupid submit button …

Yes, I TOTALLY agree. My business is my baby.

We spend 24 hours a day together.
It gets me up in the middle of the night because it demands feeding.
And constant attention!

And it’s the contribution I’ve chosen to make to the world …

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LA Reply:
December 2nd, 2009 at 8:11 am

Like the line about your business being your contribution – I think that’s a really key point to this issue.

Thanks to many of the truly amazing women who have pathed the way for us, we do have a real choice about what kind of contribution we make to the world. Attitudes and beliefs will take a while to catch up (evolution takes time) as right now on the deepest level it seems to still be about gender roles and the questioning of our feminity if we don’t breed.

I’m not sure if it’s by default or by design that many of the women I admire have made their contribution without having children. Like not having children, it’s been a fairly unconscious thing for me. I’ve marvelled at their achievements and spirit…then found out they didn’t have kids.

Good on you for giving us all a chance to discuss this.

Leela,
You have missed my point completely.
You can’t complain about mothers gaining favourable treatment at a business awards nights when you are attending one which gives complete and absolute favourable treatment to women just because they are women.
So, given we can’t change the fact that it was a women in business awards night, it should have been judged only on the success of the business. Yes.
But really, why aren’t you opposed to the whole event, which doesn’t even consider all the good work men are doing in business.
Is it purely a choice factor? You can chose not to have children, so therefore you shouldn’t be judged either way. But you can’t chose to be a man or woman? I am sure many women feel just as strongly about their gender being irrelevant, just as they feel their children or lack thereof is.

[Reply]

Leela Cosgrove Reply:
December 1st, 2009 at 9:29 pm

… the reason I’m opposed to the event is because at no point did it ever say it was MOTHERS in business award. If it says it’s a women in business award, I assume all women will be considered equally.

If it’s a business award, I assume all entrants will be considered equally, no priority given to women or men.

It’s all about definition.

I don’t enter mum in business awards – and I don’t object to them. Go for it, have your thing … but don’t INTERCHANGE the words “Woman” and “Mother” – because there are plenty of women out there who are NOT and will NEVER be mothers … show some respect.

Here’s the thing …

To run a women in business awards and then only give awards to mothers because they are “more deserving” is like running a regular business awards in which you give women all the awards because they are “more deserving”.

Personally, if I was a woman who won an award in a business ceremony based ONLY on the fact I was a woman, I would be so insulted I wouldn’t accept.

Your comments once again highlight my original issue –

The words WOMAN and MOTHER are NOT interchangeable. To make them so ROBS any woman without children of her womanhood – her femininity – and that’s simply unfair.

If a woman isn’t a woman because she has chosen not to have children – then what is she?

[Reply]

Othello Cat Reply:
December 2nd, 2009 at 6:59 am

Leela, Sam does not get it. It is Sam who has missed the point completely. Sam is the epitome of “look I have had children so I am special, I am more deserving/the exception to the rule”. Sam clumsily attempts to assert that being a parent is on par with ” immigrant entrepreneurs, entrepreneurs without legs, entrepreneurs with unfortunate backgrounds…”. No-one CHOOSES to be diabled or to have a poor background. The Sams of the world choose to be a parent then play the whiney martyr card. It is disgraceful. Sam does a diservice to the good parents who contributed to this forum earlier.

[Reply]

I completely understand your anger Leela, as I know I don’t like to be defined as a “business mum” – I run a business, full stop. When I read (and commented on) your article the first time, I was particularly alarmed by the “I want to honour every woman in this room because these women not only run businesses — they also have to take care of the home and the children” part of the awards speech. SO inappropriate and patronising and stereotypical and so on. And I was really appreciative of the discussion around not being defined by “kids or no kids”.

However, while I don’t think business women who have children should be lauded or awarded for this set of circumstances, for me personally, there is a difference running a business with and without kids – I know because I’ve done both. This is not saying one is BETTER than the other, just different. And the difference is my head space. When I’ve been up at 2 am with a sick kid and 4 am with another one who just won’t sleep, it becomes difficult to perform to my optimum the next day! And even if the kids DO let me have a good night’s sleep, most parents will tell you that they are never far from your mind, even if they are in child care or the next room watching The Wiggles while you work .

I’m not saying all this for a “poor me” response – and I know I won’t get it (lol)! I have made the choice to have kids and made the choice to run a business. So I have to deal with the “consequences” of those choices. But the fact that I am stating my situation (and perhaps whining about it from time to time) doesn’t mean I am competing with those who don’t have kids for “who’s the better business woman”. I admit that I do seek out other business women who have young kids because I know they will understand my current work/life juggle. That doesn’t mean I think I’m “better” than someone who is “Childless by Choice” – but without kids, you also won’t understand the juggle, the head space, the breastfeeding while typing, etc, etc. This is not a superiority comment – just a comment stating the obvious.

[Reply]

Leela Cosgrove Reply:
December 1st, 2009 at 9:45 pm

Michelle, I do understand. I’m not going into full details of my life here, but I will say that while I’ve never HAD children, I’ve helped raise them. My comments (and my CHOICES) certainly don’t come from an uninformed place.

My point with Sam was that EVERYONE has their issues.

Some women have kids, but apart from that they have it easy … husband has a nice, comfy job with good pay and they don’t need to worry about anything – business as hobby. Other women have kids and DO have to worry about those things (often with hubby support). Other women run a business fulltime and have nothing to fall back on financially. Whether they (and the dog) eat on a daily basis is down to how well they run their business.

My point was – having children or not having children is not a distinguishing factor of being a good business person – OR of how “hard” you have it.

There are women with children who do it tough.

And women without children who do it tough.

These things are not connected.

And what I’ve learned from this blog post is that the majority of entrepreneurial women who happen also to be mums GET that and are as frustrated by it as I am …

I’m actually so pleased at how this whole post has gone down … because apart from one notable exception, it’s been such a hugely cool feminist outpouring of sisterhood acceptance and support.

Awesomeness incarnate – all of you.

[Reply]

Thor Reply:
December 1st, 2009 at 10:02 pm

The whole awards mess really nailed for me that I would NEVER encourage ANYONE to enter any business awards / program / group that was gender centric on the basis of exactly this kind of prejudice around what a woman / man is. At best it’s a self imposed limitation. As a Man, it’s annoying hearing this kind of sexist crap mouthed by other Men, it reflects badly on those of us whose views post date the 1900′s but it’s HORRIFYING hearing this kind of infighting propagated / supported by Women – Yeah yeah you have it harder than other women so why not tear them down because of your choices… Seems a little bit.. Lame?

[Reply]

Michelle Grice Reply:
December 1st, 2009 at 10:35 pm

Yep absolutely Leela – I think Sam was missing the point. Good on you for raising such a touchy issue – and one that has obviously been the source of much frustration for you. It’s awesome how much discusssion this has generated and it has got me reflecting about the whole issue – so well done!

[Reply]

Well Leela you have certainly hit a raw nerve! I think anyone who runs a business needs to be commended – male, female, with or without child, dog or any other attachment. Running a business is challenging, rewarding, eye-opening and absolutely critical to the growth of this country. Many entrepreneurs I know not only run a business but study too and I don’t know anyone who thinks doing an MBA or PhD is a walk in the park. My point is that everyone has something else in their life and is not up to us to judge how much of a challenge that “something else” is. I run the Businesswomen’s Breakfast Series in Sydney and Melbourne each month and the women who attend blow my mind with their ability, grace, generosity and intelligence. Some have kids, some don’t, that is their life and it is not a focus. I think that by focusing our energy on “the struggle” of juggling various roles we actually create more of a struggle! We should celebrate our successes instead and help each other to celebrate theirs – regardless of what their success may entail and even if it is different from our own definition.

In case you’re wondering I do have two small children and one very large dog but that is my choice. I respect other people for theirs.

I started the thinkingparentsforum.com.au recently so that I had an excuse to interview amazing people in this realm and learn from them – I am just taking others along for the ride. This venture is completely separate from the Breakfast Series and there is no business discussed as it is not about that – I do believe that parenthood and business are separate components of our full lives as are other interests such as study, pets, sport etc. How we blend these components is up to us….

[Reply]

Leela Cosgrove Reply:
December 1st, 2009 at 10:03 pm

Cool Kim!

So with you!

I’m supportive of awesome chicks EVERYWHERE doing awesome stuff … go team you!

[Reply]

lol Leela,

So, as a business owning mother with a brain tumour and the sole income provider for my family (whose husband looks after the children), what award do I get?

hahahahaha

You know, as a feminist, I most certainly acknowledge the structural barriers that exist for women as a group. I also acknowledge the structural barriers in place for women with children vs those without.

But I think Leela’s point about womanhood being synonymous with motherhood – good GOD that is offensive.

As usual, I agree with you fully on this.

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Thor Reply:
December 1st, 2009 at 10:32 pm

I love how you Tea, of all the people, with all the stuff you go through, with all the excuses you COULD pull, have the character to see that stuff for what it is. YOU FREAKING ROCK.
We Heart you!

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Leela Cosgrove Reply:
December 1st, 2009 at 11:05 pm

I can haz baby burgerz?

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Hi all

I guess as a person first and foremost the notion of awards and recognition is an interesting thing…Never really been into them as a child… As a parent I see it all the time – often it is the same kids who wins awards at schools usually because of the focus of the awards – and when they don’t win the ugly side of kids and people come up… Do we really need them?

For whose benefit are the awards for? Maybe the category you were entered in was wrong…Maybe we need a category for women with kids and women without kids… Does it warrant a separate award… the idea of wanting to be awarded with things, having to be compared and measured against others really amazes me. Did the winning female have a degree as well and if she didn’t and you did should that be taken into account? It is all these variables that people attach value to which create conflict and People who are the judges who have biases… Aren’t we all winners… Unfortunately it isn’t always the first person who wins the race where there is an obvious winner and even then we sometimes need a photo finish which relies on human judgment…and sometimes even a drug test…Unfortunately judgment calls are made on all people and I know for a fact companies don’t even look as some job applicants unless they are from xyz universities… don’t even look at the person or their achievements even if that degree was undertake 20 years ago… Some times it just aint fair.

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Leela Cosgrove Reply:
December 1st, 2009 at 10:58 pm

I have no issues with judgment calls – but if one of those judgments was “In order to win a WOMAN in business award you must be a mother” then that should have been said at the get-go.

I know there ARE mum in business awards – I don’t enter those, because I’m not a mother. I also don’t have an issue with them.

As a business owner I have NO PROBLEM with nicheing – but don’t niche and then lie about what your niche is. State it clearly and proudly.

Aren’t we all winners?

Nope.

That’s PC bull and I totally disagree with it.

I LIKE competition.

I’m a martial artist for the same reason.

I don’t get in the ring and fight so that at the end of the day we can all be patted on the head, told we’ve done a good job and sent home … I enter competitions to compete. That’s my nature.

And yet again, making this assumption that these women based on “all else being equal” is not necessarily the case.

The woman who took out the “Woman Entrepreneur of the Year” RETAILED (didn’t create … but bought from someone else and sold) environmentally friendly nappies from her garage.

I run a high profit margin business with 20 employees creating products from scratch and delivering more than $2.5million worth of value in the last 10 months alone.

Oh, but she’s a MUM.

So it if her business isn’t as successful that’s not her fault … she should totally get an award over me because she HAS kids and surely if she didn’t her business would be as successful as mine …

It’s just silly.

It’s either a business WOMAN’S award.

Or a MUM in business award.

It’s either based on being a FEMALE in BUSINESS.

Or a MOTHER in BUSINESS.

And if it’s one, don’t pretend it’s another. That’s all I ask.

A lot of my clients and friends are women with kids and businesses – and that’s cool. I respect them and help them.

But to confuse motherhood and womanhood is ridiculous.

No one HAS to be both. You can choose to be either / or and both. Whatever. It’s all about personal choice.

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Thor Reply:
December 1st, 2009 at 11:10 pm

As Leela says, if it’s a competition for disabled Nicaraguan Mothers in business who are also communist anarchist vegans – she wouldn’t have entered. What pisses people off is when a group SAY there is one criteria, and the ACTUAL criteria are obvious. To take hard earned money from us for nominations and tickets to the event when our business is CLEARLY superior and then to hand the award who fits an undisclosed profile of the “good little woman bringing home some housekeeping.” Then to have to listen to the GM of the local paper say “Women HAVE to bring up kids” (you should have heard the loud chorus of GET FUCKED from our table) To say this brings out an ugly side is correct. And by 70% of the women who stalked out of the room following the presentation I get the feeling a lot of business women in that room felt similar…

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Leela Cosgrove Reply:
December 1st, 2009 at 11:13 pm

True, true.

I spent more than $500 on entry and tickets.

Plus three hours putting my application in.

I wouldn’t have done that for a mothers in business award because clearly I don’t fit the criteria – no issues with that, but honesty is a good thing.

75% of the women in the room left before DESERT – which tells me I wasn’t the only one who was annoyed with proceedings. I, however, stuck around until the end … as I say, desert, alcohol – AWESOME band … no WAY was I wasting that much money and not at least enjoying myself on the other side of it!

The term “breeder”, Leela, is highly offensive and lessens your credibility and argument.

You talk about being unfair? That term, my friend, is equally unfair. Like women who have children are idiot animals. They most certainly are not and it’s attitudes like yours that help create the “angst” child-free people encounter.

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Heidi Reply:
December 2nd, 2009 at 11:07 am

Sorry? Shouldn’t that be that YOU personally find the term “breeder” offensive?

I’m a business owner and a BREEDER. Absolutely, flat out, no problem with saying breeder. Because I have carried out the biological function of BREEDING.

Funny, I’m seeing angst coming from you – not Leela.

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Leela Cosgrove Reply:
December 2nd, 2009 at 11:14 am

Wow – you read a whole lot more into that, Louisa, than I said.

It’s interesting, isn’t it, how many mothers go to this place of:

“Like women who have children are idiot animals.”

I never said that. I never even insinuated that. In fact, if you look over my posts above you’ll see how much I love the chicks – like Heidi and Amanda – who are breeders and my friends.

The idiot animal thing is ALL you – and I certainly don’t see that interpretation coming from the women I know who are happy with their lives and their choices.

I don’t know whether you feel differently, because I don’t know you – so I can’t make that judgment call. But I just find it weird that my choice to NOT have children somehow becomes all about me hating and belittling mothers and / or kids.

My choice not to reproduce doesn’t mean I think you’re an idiot.

It just means I don’t want to breed.

That’s like saying …

“I really don’t like anchovies … but you love them … so you’re a moron.”

Totally illogical.

The term breeder, BTW, I picked up from my gay friends … it’s a widely used term in the gay-community for people who are hetero-sexual.

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Drew Manning Reply:
December 4th, 2009 at 4:20 pm

> The term breeder, BTW, I picked up from my gay friends … it’s a widely used term in the gay-community for people who are hetero-sexual.

Riiiight…and I have heterosexual friends that widely use certain ‘words’ for gay people, although I wouldn’t go about saying them willy nilly as they WOULD be construed as very offensive, and I personally hate them….(the words that is, not the people).

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Leela Cosgrove Reply:
December 4th, 2009 at 6:43 pm

Errr … how is breeder offensive?

If you’ve bred, you’re a breeder.

I’m childless, I’m called childless (and a lot of less-nice things also) …

Oh I see … the term breeder is gay guys being offensive? Get over it.

i think you are thinking about this too much. I don’t agree with you and in a country where entrepreneurship is hardly nurtured, women with children have an even harder time achieving success and recognition, unless you are a part of a women’s group. maybe you are hanging with the wrong crowd or at least not seeing eye to eye with your peers from this arena. take care

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Just to throw a spanner into the works, I am a mother and I too, find mummy talk so dull I would like to poke my veins out of my arms with a dull spoon whenever I am subjected to it.

The only reason I would be objecting to the creation of said group is because I want to join, just so I don’t have to hear about other people’s children.

You know, you don’t have to take your kids EVERYWHERE. You don’t have to talk about them all the time. Noone cares about anyone else’s children and if you think they do, you’re probably one of those women who gets mocked behind her back.

Sorry, but leave the spoils of your reproductive lives at home with a babysitter and talk about something else. That is, if you actually HAVE something else to talk about… and aren’t just in business as an ego-exercise turning your first born’s name into a boutique brand like it’s something new (like the 3000 other childrens boutiques with daughters names and the same products). That’s not business. That’s Mummy’s side business.

If you are in a real business, you will get a babysitter and make care arrangements for your children in order to attend events. Like most serious business women who are also mothers do. It’s like when BlogHer held their big event and that woman cracked the shits because they wouldnt let her infant into a cocktail bar…. like it’s their god-given right. Pfffft.

It is women like that that ruin it for the rest of us.

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See, I’m with Tea on this one .. my objection to the “Childless mothers” *snigger* (anyone else see the oxymoron on that one?) group is that I wanna be part of it, too!

*pout*

So I can talk business stuff without fear of the kids being spoken about. Where I can talk about business moving ahead and not “oh, but the kids were sick so I couldn’t do it” blah blah rhetoric.

ARGH!

And before anyone attacks me – my entire business is BASED on supporting mums, so I’m not anti Mums at all!

So, back to Leela’s original post – I’d be as pissed off as she if I were given an awared based on the fact that I’m doing it with kids. And just as peeved if I didn’t get it, and the basis of getting it was number and age/s of kids.

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Thor Reply:
December 3rd, 2009 at 5:41 pm

Loooooove it.

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MadCow Reply:
December 3rd, 2009 at 6:01 pm

I probably should also clarify that I think there is a place for forums/groups/sites for Mums in business, and they ARE most useful and I am a part of some of them … for when I need that sort of thing.

I do, however, NEED something that is also NOT that! For reasons I specified above.

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Big conversation here! And I’m joining late in the conversation. Women here don’t seem to be really supportive of each other, just competitive. It’s the same all over with women trying to bring each other down overtly and in more subtler ways. God forbid any of you work in all women organisations!

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Leela Cosgrove Reply:
December 4th, 2009 at 11:51 am

Interesting.

I’m very supportive of other women … ask the women here (mothers or otherwise) that I’ve supported for ages in their businesses … I don’t support people who make excuses (whether they are male or female) because I simply don’t have time for that … I’m only interested in working with people who are ready to quit whining and step up.

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heh, ah yes, the old “to be annoyed by incessant children talk is anti-woman” argument.

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So, let’s see if I can summarize:

1. Motherhood isn’t a critereon by which (you think) one person can be judged to be more or less disadvantaged than another.

2. You don’t think people should object to the term “breeder”, yet you object to the term “childless”

3. You entered a competition for women in business, and didn’t win it. The person who did was lauded as being A,B,C and also “a mother”, which you think means that being a mother gives unfair bonus points to certain women.

Now since you’re not a parent, presumably you don’t understand what being a mother entails. You can observe it and make assumptions, but you can’t really understand parenthood unless you’re a parent.

With that said, it’s probably pointless to argue with you about that, since by definition any argument about the complete perspective shift your life takes once you have a child won’t make the slightest lick of difference.

As someone else put to you, perhaps if the winner had not been a “mum” but had instead been an “immigrant” or a “1 legged hermaphrodite” in addition to being a successful businesswoman, you may not have felt so annoyed?

Perhaps you didn’t win because you didn’t win, and your business simply isn’t as good as that of the winner.

Success is relative. Motherhood is difficult. She didn’t win because she was a mother. She won because she’s a good businesswoman and you’re presumably not as good. Deal with it.

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Leela Cosgrove Reply:
December 4th, 2009 at 2:24 pm

John,

1. No, I don’t think it is. Because motherhood is a choice. If you choose to have children to then turn around and bitch about how disadvantaged you are is lame.

2. I don’t have any problem with the word childless?? Why would I say that?? In fact, I’ve used it several times to describe myself … childless by choice.

3. There were 8 awards. Every one went to a mother. And in every single presentation, it was highlighted that the woman was a mother … especially because almost all of them that had businesses that were baby-centric.

Actually, I went and spoke to these women afterwards as well as looking at their websites – I wanted to know if I was beat square and fair.

Not one of them had created anything new – they were selling other people’s stuff.

Not one of them is making as much money as me.

Not one of them has the reach my company has (they all are based and retail out of Melbourne’s Western Suburbs – most don’t even sell interstate).

Not one of them uses a comprehensive online strategy.

Not one of them has any real understanding of marketing (even the one who took out the marketing category in which I was entered).

Not one of them is doing anything interesting or innovative in their marketplaces.

Out of the 8 winners, 6 did something specifically relating to their children (retailing nappies, clothing, etc).

And not one of them is childless.

Actually, I take that back – there was ONE winner that I thought TOTALLY deserved her category. She’s in the accommodation game and I’ve stayed at her apartments and really respect the way she runs her business. But the other 7 were a joke.

There are better businesswomen in the world than me – I don’t complain about not winning the Tesltra businesswoman of the year award (which I was also nominated for) – because I was clearly out-classed there … and really was an honour just to be nominated with women who are so astoundingly good and making such huge changes in the world.

Actually, I would TOTALLY have an issue if a woman in business award went to an immigrant or a 1 legged hermaphordite whose business was not as good as the other women’s businesses.

If the award is for the best female run business, then the winner should be the female who is running the best business … not the women who is most disadvantaged.

I mean, man – if I had of known it was a “who do you feel most sorry for” type thing, I could totally have laid out my whole life story and won hands down.

But then, I don’t want to be judged on how hard it was for me to succeed.

I want to be judged on how freaking good I am.

If qualification for winning is being an immigrant – make the female immigrant business awards.

Otherwise I’ve wasted my time and money on something that I never had any chance of winning …

Oh god … more parent worship?

I, again, won’t go into my life story. But I do understand, personally and intimately, what it takes to raise a child.

You “presume” a lot throughout this post … you should watch that … you don’t know anything about me, my life or my business …

With that said, it’s probably pointless to argue with you about the whole thing since by definition any argument about the complete perspective shift your life takes when you are a WOMAN won’t make the slightest lick of difference.

*rolls eyes*

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Leela Cosgrove Reply:
December 4th, 2009 at 2:27 pm

.. and finally John …

You couldn’t POSSIBLY understand what it’s like to be a woman in business as you don’t have … the necessary equipment.

So it’s pointless talking to you about the experiences of a woman in business.

Maybe one day you will realise the awesomeness of removing your current equipment and BECOMING a woman … because only men who have done that really understand …

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Leela Cosgrove Reply:
December 4th, 2009 at 2:28 pm

Do you see how RIDICULOUS the whole … “you have no right to have an opinion on women in business because you’re not a mother” line is?

I certainly come closer than you do …

John Reply:
December 4th, 2009 at 10:12 pm

I’m glad you see the irony, Leela.

For someone who’s supposedly OK with her stance on not having yet fulfilled a “biological imperative” you certainly have invested a lot of energy firing invective into cyberspace.

Your choice of language demonstrates clear distaste for parents (male and female). I didn’t have children to fulfil a biological imperative, I brought a child into a loving relationship with my wife and the experience has brought us closer than I ever thought imaginable.

So again I say, perhaps you just didn’t win because you don’t have what it takes in the eyes of the judging panel. Like it or not, motherhood is a fulltime job (which you can of course outsource). Juggling motherhood and any job is difficult. Juggling fatherhood with any job is difficult. But any parent knows kids can do just fine without dads. Mothers on the other hand…

You keep saying that you don’t want to bring your background into it, but I think that whatever it is, it’s coming through in your obvious disgust at women who are given a pat on the back for having kids. Personally I think they deserve it.

The irony is that apparently you don’t see that all this does is make you look like you have a bad case of sour grapes, and all you have to back your position is a selection of venomous barbs designed to distract people from the real argument.

Does Leela need a hug?

Leela Cosgrove Reply:
December 4th, 2009 at 11:06 pm

At the end of the day – if the award could only be won by mothers, then why run a women’s business award and not a mothers in business award? Because if a woman can’t win it without being a mother then it’s not an award for women … it’s an award for mothers. The two words are not interchangable.

Really? A distaste for parents? LOL. No. A distaste for the idea of parenthood for myself does not equal a distaste for parents generally – but that’s something that pretty much everyone who has attacked me on here has missed.

I love parents. Even have a couple of my own. My mum and I are really close and I love her to bits. I love my closest friends – many of whom are mothers. And I love my clients – several of whom are mothers who have posted above supporting me.

Why does anyone deserve a pat on the back for having kids? Yes, I do find it ridiculous (not disgusting – that’s a very different concept) that ANYONE – male or female – is given a pat on the back for having children.

Most animals on the face of the Earth can breed. They don’t deserve awards for it.

Now, raising kids WELL – that’s a whole different kettle of fish.

*rolls eyes*

Supposedly okay.

I’m so fascinated by how, quite often, it’s men who are the ones who are behind movements like pro-life and pushing women to have children.

Supposedly okay.

Because I couldn’t possibly be a woman who has made the choice not to have kids and be happy about it.

Supposedly okay.

I’m married to an amazing man who has always told me that he’s cool with not having kids, but if I change my mind he’ll support me in that too.

Supposedly okay.

So if I wanted to breed I could do it in a heartbeat … I know it’s hard for you to get your head around – but the idea of having kids just doesn’t interest me. Not all women are meant to be mothers. It’s not the only calling that any woman on Earth could possibly have – it’s not the only role on Earth that means anything.

I am fascinated at the way that some parents can take my choice NOT to breed as a personal afront.

If you’re happy with your choices … good. Glad for you. But why does your choice to have kids make my choice not to have kids wrong?

That’s like saying that because I like Vegemite and you like Peanut Butter I have mortally offended you. I can’t stand peanut butter = I was just born that way. But that doesn’t stop your enjoyment of it – so why is it SUCH a big deal to you?

Either way – once again, the point here has been missed.

This post isn’t actually about motherhood.

It’s about business. And about definitions.

I absolutely support Mum in Business awards.

Just call them that.

A WOMAN in business award should be given to the WOMAN who runs the best business … not the woman who runs an okay business but can’t be expected to do any better because she’s a mother.

Just like a regular business award should be given to the best business, period – not to a woman because less women win awards and therefore we need to have some kind of affirmative action to equal it out.

As far as “sour grapes” and “venomous barbs” – it’s perhaps worth pointing out that I brought the topic up in the first place. If I was just trying to hide the fact that I lost square and fair by distracting people – why would I even bother writing this post in the first place? I could have kept it to myself and avoided the personal insults from a bunch of people who are very happy to hide behind their computers and throw insults, but who don’t even have the GUTS to attach their website or other details to their name.

There’s a lot of bravery from behind the computer, isn’t there?

I’d love a hug!

But that would mean coming out from your hiding place into the open and saying all of these things to my face …

Do you have the guts?

I’ve read this discourse with interest (and some amusement and some horror in places)!

I will first declare that I am the President of the Queensland Women in Technology group. WiT has 500 members – many male – and isone of the most respected industry bodies in Queensland.

We have an annual awards event at which we honour 9 women working in the IT and biotech industries.

Our award winners are selected on merit, and judged by a panel against a set of criteria. Their personal circumstances (marital status, parental status, disability or any other) are not included among the selection criteria, but they may become known to the judges during the interview process.

On the awards night all our winners have a chance to say a few words and we say a few words about them. I love hearing them speak and it is true to say that occassionally the winners will speak about their families, but more often than not they won’t: they’ll talk about their achievements.

To the question of why do we run awards for women only: we do so because showcasing the success of our female entrepreneurs/technologists/scientists is a critical part of continuing our battle for gender equality, and changing work practices that discriminate against women. Women in Technology fights for important concessions like flexible working hours for both men and for women, and to ensure that women’s capability is fully exploited in a skills-short industry. We see this work as critical to the future of our industry, and the nation, as well as addressing gender equality.

We do have critics who question why we exist: and I often remind them that gender inequality is still very real, and must be addressed, but more importantly that we do a disservice to the women and men before us who fought for our rights if we don’t continue the fight just because the ‘big’ concessions have been made. I remind these critics that 25 years ago my father had to front up to the headmaster’s office and argue for my right to study double maths+chemistry+physics at matriculation level (because girls didn’t do that, then), 5 years later when I managed my first significant workforce there were seperate award wage rates for men and women doing the same job, 40 years ago married women had to leave their public service jobs – I could go on.

I’m not sure which awards program Leela attended, but I suggest that the tone of the awards is set by the organisers, who (if they want to remain relevant) should ensure a broad appeal not a focus on any one group.

Leela – can I suggest you write directly to the award organisers and tell them you felt marginalised at the awards? And please – not all awards are like the one you attended, so if you are nominated again don’t automatically decline. I still believe it is important to celebrate the success of women like you.

Like many of the contributors to this discussion I don’t like the “Mumpreneurs” jargon: but this is largely a creation of TV shows like “A Current Affair” so my advice is to not watch them! No-one ever went to their grave wishing they had watched more “A Current Affair”

By the way, my Presidency of WiT is in a voluntary capacity. By day I am CEO of a technology incubator – and I regularly nominate my clients for awards of every description. When they win, and they often do, the benefits are tangible.

A final comment. Last weekend our Queensland newspaper compiled a list of the top 50 influential people in Queensland. Number one was Michael Good, Director of Qld Institute of Medical Research. It is no secret that Michael is a dedicated father of eight, and this fact is part of the total, admirable package that is Michael Good.

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Leela Cosgrove Reply:
December 4th, 2009 at 6:53 pm

Thanks Anne-Marie – I love hearing from strong, female role-models – particularly in male dominated arenas – who are kicking butt and taking names.

I think ALL awards should be given on merit – and nothing should ever be handed out based on who has had it hardest … as many of the mothers here have stated they wouldn’t want to win an award based on being mothers. I wouldn’t want to win an award based on the fact I grew up in a disadvantaged area.

And perhaps you have a point about writing to the organisers. The President of the group actually contacted me the other day saying they hadn’t seen me around recently and inviting me to the Christmas party … and I wasn’t really sure how to approach it! But perhaps open and honest discourse is appropriate …

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Get over it Leela. You didn’t win an award because YOU weren’t good enough. End.of.story

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Leela Cosgrove Reply:
December 4th, 2009 at 9:57 pm

I’d LOVE if that was the case.

It certainly WAS why I didn’t win the Telstra Businesswoman of the Year Award.

I have no problems admitting there are women out there whose business acumen far exceeds my own – and when I’m beat in a fair fight I’ll be the first to stand up and applaud.

Regardless, this article isn’t about my winning or not winning.

Did you even bother reading it or are you just trolling for fun?

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Thor Reply:
December 5th, 2009 at 7:10 pm

Scott Boras, widely regarded as the most powerful agent in professional baseball, describes a dinner with one of his mentors after a record-breaking contract:

“He said that if you are really effective at what you do, 95% of the things said about you will be negative. Keep your head on straight, don’t get emotional, take the heat, and just make sure your clients are smiling.”

Doing anything remotely interesting will bring criticism. Attempting to do anything large-scale and interesting will bring armies of detractors and saboteurs. This is fine – if you are willing to take the heat.

There are good reasons to be willing, even eager.

Colin Powell makes the case: pissing people off is both inevitable and necessary. This doesn’t mean that the goal is pissing people off. Pissing people off doesn’t mean you’re doing the right things, but doing the right things will almost inevitably piss people off.

Understand the difference.

Being responsible sometimes means pissing people off.

Good leadership involves responsibility to the welfare of the group, which means that some people will get angry at your actions and decisions. It’s inevitable, if you’re honorable. Trying to get everyone to like you is a sign of mediocrity: you’ll avoid the tough decisions, you’ll avoid confronting the people who need to be confronted, and you’ll avoid offering differential rewards based on differential performance because some people might get upset.

Ironically, by procrastinating on the difficult choices, by trying not to get anyone mad, and by treating everyone equally “nicely” regardless of their contributions, you’ll simply ensure that the only people you’ll wind up angering are the most creative and productive people in the organization. (full presentation here)

Don’t go through life with kid gloves on. The stakes are too high, and it is oftentimes more important to give people what they need, rather than what they want.

This includes ourselves. By facing the fire early and often, we ensure the confidence and breathing room later to do bigger and better things.

Or to just sit back in a hammock with the peace of mind that only comes with belief that you did your best.

Be criticized for doing small “safe” things, or be criticized for doing big things that you’re passionate about. That is the choice. The criticism will come either way, whether in the form of self-talk (the former) or ankle biters (the latter).

Let the critics criticize. It’s the builders who count.

See the full article:
http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2009/11/25/the-benefits-of-pissing-people-off/

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Thor Reply:
December 5th, 2009 at 7:14 pm

BTW in my haste that is TIM FERRIS not me! He is the author of stuff.

You don’t have to physically give birth to be a mother. Raising a child (from any source) puts you into the mother category.

And then you wrote – ”
but I will say that while I’ve never HAD children, I’ve helped raise them.”

You’re a hypocrite Leela – you claim you don’t want children yet you help raise your partners. And of course he will go with whatever you want – he’s already fathered his quota. (and i can’t wait for his response because between the 2 of you, you’ve attempted to justify your lives several times on this forum and he adds his 2 cents worth almost as much as you do)

As in all awards, they were probably looking for a ‘total package’ and you obviously didn’t make it.

You didn’t win – accept it and move on.

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Heidi Reply:
December 6th, 2009 at 2:42 pm

Que? Did I miss something?? The ONLY way Leela could have helped raise children is if they are her partners???

Massive assumption Guest – let’s now remove this country’s Foster Parent system. These people could not POSSIBLE raise children because they are not the offspring of their partner….

I’m not saying that Leela is a foster parent, I’m saying that assumptions can be dangerous, and by making them you risk being taken as a fool.

Oh, and as someone who has been a step-parent as well as a mother: you can love a step-child as much as you’re own but THEY ARE NOT. And the role you play in their life should not be as a replacement for a biological parent.

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Leela Cosgrove Reply:
December 6th, 2009 at 3:27 pm

Urrr … Guest – that’s a really random thing to say.

You obviously don’t know me – and to run off saying things like I’ve raised my partners kids?? WTF?? LOL – urrr. That’s never happened. Big assumption.

You don’t know Thor – so assuming he’s “fathered his quota” – again, big assumption.

I find it very interesting that you’re so caught up in making assumptions about me and my life … you’ve got all of your assumptions wrong … which just goes to show that the rest of your assumptions (“As in all awards, they were probably looking for a ‘total package’ and you obviously didn’t make it.”) – probably wrong too.

And personally – I disagree that having a child makes you the “total package” – that’s YET ANOTHER outdated, sexist attitude towards women … because you can’t be the total package unless you’ve had a child? Oh and of course, if you’re doing better than another women who is in business, but she’s had a kid – she deserves the award and IS the “total package” whilst you are not?

Thanks for the advice – but once again you’ve missed the point of this article.

It’s not about winning an award.

It’s about attitudes to women in business in 2009.

And you’ve just once again proven my point … that many people, even other women, see the height of female achievement as being a baby machine. As breeding.

If you haven’t done that, you haven’t achieved anything. You couldn’t possibly have added anything to the world.

I find that level of out-dated, sexist thinking really sad.

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PS

By the way “Guest” – it’s really hard to take anyone seriously when they want to hide behind their computer and throw stones.

Calling me a hypocrite and attacking my husband based on information that YOU INVENTED and which has NO RESEMBLANCE to reality is really not cool.

Actually, making this personal at ALL is really not cool. It’s amazing how many people think that because I’ve written an article and posted it online that it’s okay to go after me personally. The article didn’t attack anyone – I didn’t even mention the name of the organisation because I wanted to look at the bigger picture behind the circumstances.

But somehow, this whole thread has become “Let’s make up stuff and say nasty things about Leela Field Day”.

And you know what, that’s one thing.

But to then attack my husband also – who is the most awesome man I’ve ever met in my life, who goes out of his way constantly to help people and who gives more than anyone I know – without even having the guts of posting your real name or any information about yourself.

Well that’s just lame.

And cowardly.

And pathetic.

And so all of you – “guests”, “john”, “sue” et al, I’m not giving you anymore of my time.

It’s kind of funny that you all think you’re superior because you’ve had children.

Look at the way you’re behaving.

Hiding behind your computers and being nasty about someone you’ve never met.

Is THIS the way you are teaching your children to behave?

Yup. You’re REAL superior guys.

And you wonder why some of us don’t want to bring kids into this world.

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Thor Reply:
December 6th, 2009 at 4:02 pm

I love you “guest”! You have inspired me as I am often inspired by people who use anonymity to judge and abuse others, to continue to live my life on my terms, and love my partner, for who she has the courage to be. I know who I am, she knows who she is, we have flaws and are real people. WHO ARE YOU? We already know you are weak and scared ashamed of your vitriol, because you lack the courage and strength of character to post as a REAL PERSON! The example you have shown everyone here is the reason we are who we are, REAL PEOPLE with COURAGE. Your cowardice speaks volumes about who you aren’t. I hope you can grow strong enough to use your real identity on posts in future, to take off the mask and join the rest of us real people, I hope by Leela’s example your sad life can change one day. Until then.
xxx

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On one hand you don’t want people to attack you personally, yet on the other you are calling people cowards for not revealing their personal information?
It shouldn’t matter who they are, if they are raising an argument, their context does not strengthen or diminish the point that they make.
But Leela, you are to be commended for giving everyone your time and responding, even if not everyone agrees with what you are saying. Is this a record for the comments section on the Anthill website?

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Leela Cosgrove Reply:
December 6th, 2009 at 6:53 pm

Actually, it does diminish their point.

Because their happy to MAKE UP LIES and say stuff about me – but their not willing to reveal their identities.

I’m 99% certain that I know a few of the people who have posted – that they are people who don’t really care about the argument but who have grudges against me. Hence not revealing themselves.

Do they have points?

No, not really.

Their “points” are entirely based on fabrications and assumptions – I’m a hypocrite because according to someone who obviously doesn’t know me I’ve raised my partners kids (that never happened!).

According to someone else who obviously doesn’t know me I’m “supposedly okay” with my choice not to have kids … i.e. I’m not really okay with it. Talk to anyone who KNOWS me and well … how can you make those assumptions without meeting someone?

It totally matters who they are – because when you hide behind a first name with no link you DON’T HAVE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for anything you say. You can be nasty, bitchy and attacking without repercussions.

I don’t have that luxury – my name, photo, website are all over my posts. Everything I say, I back 100% with my reputation.

What does it mean when you call someone a hypocrite and make up crap about their lives when you won’t post your real name?

It means you’re a coward.

It means you’re willing to throw stones and comments from behind your veil of anonymity. Every comment I make is marked against my name, for better or for worse.

I’d LOVE to meet all of the people who have attacked me in person – because I know, for a fact, that most of them are only comfortable throwing out insults while their anonymous – they would never have the guts to do it to my face. In fact, I invite all of them to meet me in person. To say the things they’ve been saying to ME – rather than spouting vitriol at a computer screen.

Look me in the eye and call me a hypocrite – call me a lesser human being for not having children … and then we’ll have a different discussion.

But no – everyone is willing to yell, but no one has the courage of their convictions.

Yawn.

yep, absolutely – I totally get personal with people who have attacked me first. You’ll notice – if you go over every comment I’ve ever made on this or any other website, that I NEVER EVER say anything personal until someone goes me first … I spent a long time on the debate team in high school and learned that you ALWAYS attack the argument, not the person.

However, when people make up stuff about me … and attack my husband … and then talk a whole heap of crap about me … under first names or “guest” – well, they threw the first stone and I have no problem calling them cowards when they’ve attacked the people I cared about and made stuff up about me first.

In terms of record – nope … check my last post re: logos – which cracked the 100 comment mark.

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Thor Reply:
December 6th, 2009 at 7:01 pm

This is the best laugh I have had in weeks, thank you Sam for the howls of laughter echoing around our house. And if you want to look less of a coward, I welcome you to give me feed back personally anytime, if you aren’t a coward. LOL which I think we know you are. Lame.

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Guest Reply:
December 6th, 2009 at 7:37 pm

I’m not the only person to “hide” behind a name – your so-called husband is not called THOR. That’s a pseudonym also. (isn’t it Gulliver)
If a ‘common-law’ husband is your husband – then does ‘common-law’ kids give kids a sense of belonging?
You may have the rings, but there are a few things that don’t ring true in your arguments!

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Leela Cosgrove Reply:
December 6th, 2009 at 8:16 pm

Urrr … regardless. My name is Leela Cosgrove. My photo is in my profile. My website is above. If your want to meet Gulliver, please feel free to come to an event.

No, really. PLEASE come to an event.

What kids?

There aren’t any kids??

I don’t understand what you think you’re talking about …

Leela Cosgrove Reply:
December 6th, 2009 at 8:22 pm

Pft.

Trolls suck.

Who are you, guest?

Making stuff up about me … kids? So random. I don’t have children. Never have had children. Haven’t raised my partners children. Have no idea what you’re talking about.

Reveal yourself …

Or shut up.

Either way – stop trying to spread lies.

Thor Reply:
December 6th, 2009 at 8:28 pm

Anyone who want’s to know who ThorSalesWarlord is can find me all over the net. My name IS Gulliver. I have nothing to hide. I note your details are not as freely available “guest” speaks volumes about who you are. Digging for personal information on us and “going” us on the internet is called CYBERBULLYING if you want we can have the police take a look at the backtracks of your posts and find out who you are. If you have something to say to me – call me. My numbers are all over the internet.

As a male who has spent more time than he would like in our useless Family court system – I can say that our legal system is heavily built upon and steeped in gender-bias. Women are “weaker in the workforce and better parents” and men are “breadwinners and weaker parents”.
Well done on your achievements, whichever species you are.
The issue of “who do I pass my millions on to, when I pass away?” bears some thought.

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Deb Sturgess Reply:
February 23rd, 2010 at 6:58 pm

Leela,
Forgive me for coming in quite late to the discussion, but I both agree with you and think that subtle points have been missed by all (unless I overlooked something.) To avoid writing a treatise, I’ll probably sacrifice some coherence, but here goes:
I have children, and I would have been offended at the event you describe. No woman should be defined by the state of her uterus — used or unused, by fate or by choice. In fact, I don’t think you should feel the need to explain that you are childless or that it is by choice. Neither fact is relevant to your accomplishments as an entrepreneur. Perhaps business-as-baby is a valid metaphor, but in itself it implies that a woman must find something to mother, which reinforces the myth that the most admirable business women are those who are who are successful in their careers and who have used their uteruses. (Of course, I’m unfairly ignoring those who adopt with my language choices.) Let’s keep business accomplishments in the public realm and reproduction/adoptioin the private realm, recognizing that one realm does not make the other more or less praise-worthy. If public and private realms are to be mixed, I wonder if the organizers of the awards evening would have considered recognizing “Leela and Deb, two woman entrepreneurs who still manage to personally keep all the toilets at home sparkling clean and vacuum the entire house twice weekly!

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Deb Sturgess Reply:
February 23rd, 2010 at 7:03 pm

Upon reviewing the tone of some of the previous posts, I feel the need to state that I did not intend to ridicule mothers (by birth or adoption), business women, people who refer to their businesses as their babies or people who keep their toilets and floors clean.

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