It’s an interesting point Harry raises – but I think that most design competitions of this type are realistically not aimed at professionals but at students or new designers wanting to enter the field. Even if the prize is the equivalent of a reasonable price, only one person will get ‘paid’ and every other entrant will do the work without any reward. For this reason most professionals don’t consider entering competitions unless there’s fame or glory involved as well as prize money. Then it’s a weigh-up as to whether the potential work gained from the exposure is worth the time spent. for students and newbies it is – as a real, published portfolio piece of any sort is great. For established designers it has to be something bigger to get the excited enough to break away from their paid work.

I don’t often enter competitions as I don’t have the time to gamble. But I don’t get annoyed when they are offered, and I certainly wouldn’t then spend the time writing angry emails to competition organisers…

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There is nothing more insulting than having someone undercut your work for a lower fee. I suspect that Harry is more annoyed by the fact that people would actually like to enter the comp, and be happy with the $400 AND A GREAT DEAL OF EXPOSURE.

I’ve been through this as a musician… it smarts.

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Seriously, how ridiculous. If you don’t want to enter a competition, or if you feel it is beneath you, talk with your feet, and lave the competition alone.

You enter a competition to be a part of it and to be a chance at winning whatever prize is on offer. I fyou don’t want to enter, then it’s simple choice to make… don’t enter.

James, I felt your reply was quite controlled in it’s delivery, and I applaud you for that. Keep up the good work and good luck with future competitions.

Thomas

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It is an interesting dilemma of the free market. I recently used a similar web design community to fulfill a brief I had for a logo. My usual graphic design company has previously charged me $2000 in the past for 2 or 3 designs, as part of a competitive design community, I received 23 designs, for a pre nominated payment of $200AU which the winning designer was more than happy with. I feel no remorse then or now for paying that amount, as it enabled several designers who may not have the support of a company or high profile agency to get their work commissioned, and I will certainly be using this site again. My opinion is that if the artists don’t want to participate this way, they can choose not to. Many companies would be very uncomfortable with working in this ad hoc way without the big brand agencies to back them, and will stick the the usual channels. Other’s like me will choose diversity, competition and new methods for old problems. Vive la 2.0 revolution I say.

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Mr Hellraiser doesn’t seem to understand the point of supply and demand. He cites “basic rights” to earn certain amounts of money, but how will those “rights” help stop offshore competitors (and Anthill competitions undercutting him? We’re heading into recession sir and your rights are going to help you one iota.

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Hello James,

You have done a good job. After all it’s only a competition. Your reply was very much appropriate.

I don’t understand why would anyone has the time to write an angry yet unproductive email if he or she doesn’t want to join in the fun of a competition.

All the best!

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I think you and he should get out more! There’s a big wide world out there and more important issues to discuss than this.

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Talk about an angry market participant! Keyword is market and I bet if he found someone to pay $10,000 for a day’s work he’d take it! Denial of this probability is expected.

The thing exposed is that the price-finding mechanism of the market is developing exponentially broader basis due to the (bare with me) Communications Revolution, pushing prices down. The higher talents however will always command higher rates.

I also note that the free market ideas are under pressure, scapegoated by elite corruption as dangerous, due to unfolding market meltdowns.

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Crowd sourcing is new market economy. Designers aren’t just competing with the graphic designer in the next suburb, they’re competing with quality designer all over the world.

They don’t like any undercutting of their rates or the mere hint of their artwork not being recognised as amazing (usually because it’s not).

Designers will jump up and down, piss and moan. Maybe if they provided artwork that works, rather than just look good, they’d be competitive.

It’s (almost) all about the content, not much to do with the design – talking magazines, web, flyers, direct mail, etc.

Precious designers like your Harry Hotpants errr Hellraiser don’t like that because it doesn’t play to their inflated egos or their high prices.

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It’s an interesting point you raise about ‘disruptive change’. How many industries have been tipped on their ears by disruptive change agents, budget airlines, for example.

Who is to say that the professionals of today standing by their “I won’t get out of bed unless I get the standard rate” position won’t become the modern equivalent of the dodo?

I believe that its a matter of evolutionary cost base over revolutionary cost base – established businesses need to make X% margin to cover what their cost base has evolved to be and make a profit, a revolutionary entrant into a market sector is starting with a completely different cost base and can shake up the market. Their barrier to entry is breaking down the door.

Just ’cause you’ve always done it that way for that much money doesn’t mean its always going to be so…

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Harry’s basic problem is he’s expecting to earn a decent living by entering competitions! It would be unethical if James were holding a gun to his head and forcing him to work in a design sweatshop for pennies, but otherwise, so long as the terms of the competition are clear, what’s the issue?

I suspect the size of the prize helps determine who enters and how much time they put into it though…..

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As someone who teetered on the edge of taking the graphic design / creative industry career path for years, I can honestly say that competitions are virtually all beginning designers have.

Nobody wants to pay a nobody a somebody’s rate for a design, regardless of ethical and standardized rates. This is the gap competitions fill, resulting in a win-win situation for designer and client. The client receives a wealth of creativity and provides the winning designer with an even greater wealth of exposure. The designer receives a token amount of cash and said wealth of exposure.

If Harry is so focussed on the dollar amount, just put a price to it. Standard arrangement, established designer receives $1200.00 for their design, but does not add it to thier already established folio of work. Competition arrangement, unestablished designer recieves $400.00 for their design, adds it to thier unestablished folio of work and then uses that folio to get a part time position at design firm, paying $45,000.00 per year. From the single transaction, the unestablished designer has added $45,400.00 worth of value they would otherwise be without.

It all depends on your perspective, so if you see no value in something – leave it to those who do. Case closed.

Now where did I put that Illustrator CD from all those years ago….

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Maybe Australian graphic designers need to lobby the government for tarrifs on off-shore creative work to “protect their industry”…

The model used by 99desgins will be replicated in other industries and is very good for business.

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Harry Hellraiser only shows that he doesn’t understand the difference between an experimental competition and a normal professional contract. He also doesn’t understand how to communicate in a civilised manner – not very good if he wants to gain professional customers. He has not the slightest basis for accusing you or Anthill of being unethical.

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Sub-standard pay (or no pay at all) is a hot topic amongst writers, too. There are plenty of sides to the argument – here’s a selection.

1. Low or no pay markets are a good way for newcomers to get some bylines that will lead to better paid jobs that will lead to a career.
2. Established writers hate them because it lowers the bar for everyone. Why would a publication pay $1000 when they can get someone to do it for $100?

Personally I think it comes down to:

Where are you in your career? Starting out? Established?
What’s in it for you if there’s no money?

If you’re starting out you can get good leads from an unpaid/low-paid gig. If you’re established why would you do it?

You have to weigh it up for yourself. What you don’t do is get angry about it. There’s a big bad world out there full of opportunities, so if you don’t like this one move on.

I think he was just having a bad day.

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Sometimes you just have to tell people to get a life. Australia will sink or swim only if it moves with the times, does things like Magazine 2.0, & finds new economics in new businss models. “Harry” is living in 1997 at best.

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I am curious if Harry is as enthusiastic about protecting the rights of his fellow Australian workers (assuming he is in OZ) and would like to tell us which brand of car he drives, what brand of TV he watches, what brand of computer he uses, where he gets his art supplies from and so on – or – like many people who complain about their industry getting undercut, bypassed or outsourced in the global market, they themselves are not worried about their own purchasing behaviour impact on Australian industries when they buy products made from cheaper labour which undercuts Australian made products, such as buying a Hyundai devalues the skill of Australian trained Engineers at Holden’s.

Maybe Harry would like to enlighten all of us with his dedication to supporting fair wages for recognised skills and explain why he undercut a professional lawyer when it came to writing a letter of grievance, surely as a artist/designer he should realise it is not part of his profession.

Finally – as stated in a earlier reply, get a life, it’s only a competition.

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i guess i can see both sides here, you offered something in good faith (the competition prize) and someone from that industry (most likely at their wits end from frustration about the undervaluing of their craft) got pissed off…
i thought you did a brilliant job of the polite & thoughtful reply considering how agitated anyone would be at receiving such an email… and i say that having been (in a similar situation elsewhere) both the irritated craftsman, and also the person taking a deep breath & replying politely because you genuinely want to learn from the experience… full points for that.
i know from friends & relatives that artists live an extremely tough life, and i dont agree with anyone who says “well if you dont like it get into another profession”, because for many of these people this is their only hearts desire, to be artists… and some of them are BRILLIANT at what they do, and still cant make a dollar. this isnt always the fault of people not appreciating their work though, more a matter of people not understanding the value of it, and the artist not having the business & sales skills to explain it properly.
i definitely dont think he was in the right by calling you unethical… thats a ridiculous assertion, especially when it seems from your own words that you were willing to politely admit to him that you were not aware of how some people might value the work & you were just doing the best you can with the budget you have.

…i think this is a good case to legalise marijuana… because someone needs to hand that guy a big fat scoob! its about the only solution i can think of right now… he seems very overly stressed.

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James,

Harry seems to think that the world owes him a living and due recognition for his talents. With globalisation there are no set rates anymore. A code cutter from Indonesia will work for aud 10 per hour and produce just as high quality work as someone in the west charging 50 – 80 per hour. Market forces are what sets the rate not the The Australian Freelance Rates for Australian Artists.

I do however sympathise with your comment about everyone wanting free content that has cost you to generate. Advertising revenue seems the only way to recoup content costs.

The internet is chock full of free information. Anyone with a word program can publish to a worldwide audience. Very few have come up with a way to make a profit on the net.

It’s a brave new world

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With that attitude, Harry will end up a dinosaur, like the journos who railed against providing web content, record labels that fought downloads, media companies that depended on selling classified ads, encyclopedia companies that thought nobody would give credence to crowd-sourced knowledge, and car companies that did deals with unions that saw their assembly line labour cost reach $75 / hour.

It’s called creative destruction, a key element in economic development – and you can either take part or be washed away. The same goes for economies as a whole – embrace change, or bail out failed and obsolete businesses and business models, at the present and future cost of the entire country.

And what’s this rubbish about a mandated price structure? Some “creatives” may think they are above the messiness and vulgarity of the bourgeois marketplace, but like computer programmers have found, they are skilled tradespeople, nothing more (an honorable vocation, as is plumbing).

My dear Harry, if and when clients discover they can get a quality product from Bangalore or Wichita or Kigali at a fraction of the price, your so-called “basic rights of Australian designers” can go and get themselves forcefully reamed for all they are worth, which is not very much really.

But I’m probably wrong, because those backwards people don’t have your refined artistic sensibility, “serious” glasses, MacBook Pro, subscription to Wallpaper*. Or do they? Very soon you might find the only thing they lack is your unearned sense of entitlement.

P.S. James – stuff ‘ethical businessman’, ethical drinking buddy would be a start

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We LOVE 99Designs and other crowd sourcing sites including eLance and others. As an early-stage bootstrapping start-up our image and brand are everything yet we simply cannot afford to pay the high local rates of designers. To date we have put 4 job through 99Designs and have been amazed by the quality of the work for the price we have paid. Sure perhaps a local designer may have been able to “capture” our “essence” better but because we don’t really know what we want before we see it, the huge choice a crowd-sourcing site offers far out weighs the arguably higher quality work from a local.

Also and probably more importantly we are dealing in a global economy these days and the old ways are broken. The internet has taken market economics to a new level and in the crowd sourcing model the level of supply far outweighs the demand. Additionally lets not forget the fluctuation in global currencies and the difference in the average GDP between the poor and rich countries. Who’s to say that the $400 you have offered is not potentially above the current market rate and generous in some places?

Also James I love the comparison you made to giving away your content for free, brilliant! Although the sad thing is Harry probably does expect you to give away your content… can I ask if he is a subscriber to Anthill?

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James – your wrote: “It’s not much of an explanation/apology…”

so which one was it, an explanation or apology? i think it can only be one or the other.

but somehow i dont think an apology is required unless there was intent. though acknowledgment of the point made and appreciation in the form of changing your amount paid i.e. up to $1257, I think would be a reasonable resolution.

Steve

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Clever marketing and lateral thinking is w hat sorts the wheat from the chaff. Our local pub did something similar asking its patrons (and I’m sure there were very few designers) to create a design on a beer coaster – all for a few hundred bucks. The publican was inundated with submissions. I can appreciate Harry’s disdain and the need to vent his spleen. He can always walk away and get on with another better paid job.

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In the fast paced life anything that engages the consumer is to be lauded. Harry is right in that it is an old concept – but it seems to work. Essentialy it is Darwinian in origin in that the younger fitter competitor who is prepared to work for less does come to the fore, until they too become old, tired and hungry.

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The first thing to be said here is – it is nice to see the integrity of both Harry and James on display! Harry needs to be respected for raising what is a very sensitive and deep subject (as for the Pelican called Tony who says this is not an important issue, I would like to ask him what is the specific address of the pool of quicksand he lives in?).

The tone of Harry’s email was completely unnecessary, but for every one of us who read Anthill, we will face the same challenges (many already will have) from ‘disruptive’ technologies and business models.

I welcome new business models and new ways of doing business – but I have more respect for those who are willing to help people like Harry adopt to the ‘new way’ of doing business. Who on this forum is willing to work with Harry and help his business change to be better prepared to deal with emerging models like 99designs?

As one of this country’s, and the worlds’ leading speakers, writers and consultants on the subject of personal branding, I would be happy to share some ‘personal branding’ love with Harry if he is willing to explore my offer!

Great subject James, and I commend for tackling this head on with transparency!

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It’s a global market and there are plenty of amazing graphic designers (not to mention coders, writes etc etc) out there who will dot eh job for the proposed $400 and do a damn good job too. Sounds like the original writer is the steam train of today, his days are numbered if he doesn’t wake up.

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I’ve worked in magazines for years, and know that Captain Complaint isn’t acknowledging the fact that many mags – including ones run by large publishers – don’t pay freelance rates. You’re paid what you’re paid, and if you don’t want to work there, you can get knotted.

It’s unfortunate, but given the widescale democratisation of design and writing – for a couple of thou, now, you can have a suite of software that is not only easier to use than its predecessors, but costs almost exponentially less than it used to – the companies are in a position of power, and if you want a position in the media, you need to get on board with them.

That said, I think it’s wrong that publishers making a lot of money from their business – bigger ones, and I’m thinking of some of the online publishers who still use the unpaid contrib model (this is mostly in the music world) – don’t pay at least award. Of course, this is taken care of by the fact that most larger publishers have their own awards, which you have to accept when coming on board. Don’t want to? You won’t get the work.

The mag I’m at now (with a 4000 circulation, much of that unpaid, unfortunately) we still pay between 40-50c per word. I’ve had writers stomp off in disgust because this is below award – but it doesn’t change the fact that we’re actually paying more than similar mags of our size, and that we value the work and aim to provide consistency for our contributors. Not that we could be the only thing they do for a crust, but it’s a nice little earner for stories that would fall within the interests of our contribs, as we’re a niche pub. Constant work on smaller-than-award rates is better than one month at full rates followed by stuff-all because the company’s gone bust, surely?

However, I think it’s all down to negotiation. If the writer/artist can’t be stuffed negotiating their own fee – and having a sticking point they won’t drop below – then they deserve all the reaming they get. Too many people in media – the fact there’s TOO MANY people in media is probably a start – believe they’re owed a living, when it’s patently not true. It’s weird: people seem to either want to provide their work for free, or they believe it’s the New Best Thing and should be remunerated as such. I think neither should be the case, personally.

If the complainant can earn a crapload for their tasks, then good on ‘em. If you can earn as much as people in the finance sector can, then go for your life. But you’d be one of the few

To suggest that someone who’s offering a leg-up comp start (which will do no more than give a bit of cash for the pub (as well as putting a name around for more prospective hirers to see)) is having a rip on a par with some publishers of leading titles renowned in their circles for poor pay is misguided at best, and completely ignorant of Australian publishing at worst.

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This disgruntled “artist” is forgetting to look at the value of having the front cover on his CV. He’s not looking at the whole picture. Just the cash payment. Not the additional roll on benefit it would create for any designer.

Also real designers – don’t really just say “x for a page” – yeah right. What happened to being paid for the number of hours one puts into it. Then there is no avenue of exploitation available for the client.

With that much vitriolic mash spewing forth there’s probably not much room for inspired design, the energy would have been trashed.

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